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 Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
  
| I definitely agree with winwillows. I have switched all my horses to alfalfa pellets (3-6 lbs), free choice coastal, and 1-2 lbs of mannapro (which he helped formulate). I can't afford Renew Gold in the region I currently live. The only 'supplement' they get is SmartGut Ultra, and Forco. The ones in heavy work get 1-2 lbs Ultium daily. They look phenomenal, feel great, and it was a very simple, very inexpensive switch. It brought one horse back from the dead, and fitted two others that were mediocre at best. Their feet grow extra quick, I've gone to 5 week shoeing due to the quicker rate of growth. Manes and tails are needing scissor action due to the quick growth, dragging the ground!
I made this switch in January of this year. I got on the Forco and SmartGut abou 2 months ago. I can't believe the difference I'm seeing in less than a year. Less has definitely been more! |
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Expert
Posts: 1695
 
Location: Willows, CA | Bob
What you are doing is certainly different from the point that I am making here. Addressing tested, proven deficiencies in the diet is much different than adding supplementation simply based on someone else's results with a certain supplement in their horse. That was the point of my post in the first place, and goes for your product, mine or anyone else's. On another track, while formulating from existing blood work may result it a very positive improvement in a horses health in it's current situation. Fixing the diet to begin with and then formulating supplementation, if needed, based on an optimized digestive system and function may well provide an even better result. I would guess that someone using your talents to support a normal functioning digestive and immune system would only benefit more from the support. |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | Bob - 2014-08-11 5:30 PM
I disagree. But that's my own opinion of having formulated continually for 19 years. When someone has a problem and they send me a CBC and a Chem panel I can see deficiencies and I can formulate a product for that specific animal and human. That's a Dietary supplement ( nutraceutical) and I would not include that product in what you are describing,
But that's my own opinion having formulated for horse owners, numerous Vet's and hundreds of MD all over the world.
And it was you that figured out what was wrong with my horse after numerous trips to different vets and lots of money spent for zero results. I still find it amazing how many vets really can't read a blood chem panel.
I have been a customer since 2005 and I like that I can target a specific probem without overloading on all other kinds of ingredients that aren't needed. IMO there is a huge difference in a supplement and the THE nutraceuticals.  |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | Bob - 2014-08-11 6:30 PM
I disagree. But that's my own opinion of having formulated continually for 19 years. When someone has a problem and they send me a CBC and a Chem panel I can see deficiencies and I can formulate a product for that specific animal and human. That's a Dietary supplement ( nutraceutical) and I would not include that product in what you are describing, But that's my own opinion having formulated for horse owners, numerous Vet's and hundreds of MD all over the world.
I agree with Bob. When owners have labs blood etc. And a formula is designed it is beneficial. I am talking the owners that feed several different things together that actually will do more harm then good. Have vet draw blood. Figure out what horse needs then have Bob make one that is custom to your horse. That way its not overkill..several products. Can be toxic buildup if given to much and to many randomly. |
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 Bye-Bye Jiggle
Posts: 1691
Location: Where ever there's sunshine! | cheryl makofka - 2014-08-11 12:40 PM
You are forgetting not all horses are created equal, just like people, some medications will work for some, and not for others.
Interesting you say that...."they're all different" is exactly what I got out of the post |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| BleuIdGrl - 2014-08-11 6:50 PM
cheryl makofka - 2014-08-11 12:40 PM
You are forgetting not all horses are created equal, just like people, some medications will work for some, and not for others.
Interesting you say that...."they're all different" is exactly what I got out of the post
Out of the first post, I got, if your horse needs supplements, then your horse is having gut problems, absorption issues, or as I have heard one holistic person call a leaky gut, fix the gut problems then you won't need the supplements. |
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | Well, I make supplements so I clearly don't think that they are never useful or even at times necessary. The point is that too much suplementation is both unnecessary nor is it beneficial if the horse has a diet that does not disrupt proper efficiency and function. Fix the diet, then provide additional nutrition in the smallest least disruptive way. The result is always a less stressful horse, a better immune system, fewer vet visits, and no colic risk. |
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Industrial Srength Barrel Racer
Posts: 7268
| Nevertooold - 2014-08-11 6:40 PM Bob - 2014-08-11 5:30 PM
I disagree. But that's my own opinion of having formulated continually for 19 years. When someone has a problem and they send me a CBC and a Chem panel I can see deficiencies and I can formulate a product for that specific animal and human. That's a Dietary supplement ( nutraceutical) and I would not include that product in what you are describing,
But that's my own opinion having formulated for horse owners, numerous Vet's and hundreds of MD all over the world.
I have been a customer since 2005 and I like that I can target a specific probem without overloading on all other kinds of ingredients that aren't needed. IMO there is a huge difference in a supplement and the THE nutraceuticals.
I won't go without my THE supplement - my horse "sees dead people" if not on it! - seriously, he is a DIFFERENT horse without the special formula I feed that Bob came up with. There was a time when I fed SO many different supplements, I felt like I needed to feed more grain to mix it all in with - and really, all I was doing was wasting money. |
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 Regular
Posts: 50
Location: Canada | "Feed for Need..." If the horse NEEDS it then FEED it  |
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | Griz - 2014-08-12 5:35 AM
Nevertooold - 2014-08-11 6:40 PM Bob - 2014-08-11 5:30 PM
I disagree. But that's my own opinion of having formulated continually for 19 years. When someone has a problem and they send me a CBC and a Chem panel I can see deficiencies and I can formulate a product for that specific animal and human. That's a Dietary supplement ( nutraceutical) and I would not include that product in what you are describing,
But that's my own opinion having formulated for horse owners, numerous Vet's and hundreds of MD all over the world.
I have been a customer since 2005 and I like that I can target a specific probem without overloading on all other kinds of ingredients that aren't needed. IMO there is a huge difference in a supplement and the THE nutraceuticals.
This was my point. I have heard nothing but good things about THE products. The value of individual formulations for specific issues makes perfect sense. One size fixes everything no matter what the underlying cause is does not make sense, and that was my point. A product that works for one horse may not work for another if the underlying cause of the problem is different. My point was simple here. Move toward a more natural functioning diet to begin with, and supplement to the horses requirements from that proper base of nutrition. This makes it much easier to judge if the supplementation you are doing is effective or just a waste of your money. |
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 Warrior Mom
Posts: 4400
| Ive been thinking about this thread all night. Im starting to think im wasting my money and even worse, over-doing it! But Id sure like to simplify my program. |
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 Goat Giver
Posts: 23166
| I think another issue frequently overlooked is that too much of a nutrient can show the same problems as a deficiency. My wonderful horse nutrition professor convinced me that horses are pretty good at making do so long as the basic needs were met.
Do I supplement. Some horses, yes. If they have a specific diagnosed issue and it responds to the supplement. Most of ours are on roughage and mineral and they look amazingly fat and shiney. |
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Bye-Bye Jiggle
Posts: 1691
Location: Where ever there's sunshine! | cheryl makofka - 2014-08-11 8:39 PM
BleuIdGrl - 2014-08-11 6:50 PM
cheryl makofka - 2014-08-11 12:40 PM
You are forgetting not all horses are created equal, just like people, some medications will work for some, and not for others.
Interesting you say that...."they're all different" is exactly what I got out of the post
Out of the first post, I got, if your horse needs supplements, then your horse is having gut problems, absorption issues, or as I have heard one holistic person call a leaky gut, fix the gut problems then you won't need the supplements.
Agreed! |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 999
Location: Sunny So Cal | Griz - 2014-08-12 3:35 AM Nevertooold - 2014-08-11 6:40 PM Bob - 2014-08-11 5:30 PM
I disagree. But that's my own opinion of having formulated continually for 19 years. When someone has a problem and they send me a CBC and a Chem panel I can see deficiencies and I can formulate a product for that specific animal and human. That's a Dietary supplement ( nutraceutical) and I would not include that product in what you are describing,
But that's my own opinion having formulated for horse owners, numerous Vet's and hundreds of MD all over the world.
I have been a customer since 2005 and I like that I can target a specific probem without overloading on all other kinds of ingredients that aren't needed. IMO there is a huge difference in a supplement and the THE nutraceuticals.
DIDDO!! |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 455
| winwillows - 2014-08-11 9:21 PM
Well, I make supplements so I clearly don't think that they are never useful or even at times necessary. The point is that too much suplementation is both unnecessary nor is it beneficial if the horse has a diet that does not disrupt proper efficiency and function. Fix the diet, then provide additional nutrition in the smallest least disruptive way. The result is always a less stressful horse, a better immune system, fewer vet visits, and no colic risk.
It's so simple, that it is complicated. Ha!
I realize that I am bumping up an old post, but I have to say winwillows, I am searching your posts on this board and WOW, thank you for such unbiased, uncomplicated, solid information! |
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Member
Posts: 44
| I have talked to several GREAT vets that are local to me and they say the same thing about supplements. If you are feeding quality hay, salt block, and fresh water, there should be no reason to supplement. She told me this, "You've heard of selenium poisoning right?" Yes. "People mix up all these supplements and don't realize they're doing more harm than good." Hence the Selenium example. Horses get too much of it, coming from all these supplements. And she said, "Have you heard of Selenium deficiency? Nope. "The horses don't much of it in their diet, but the supplements overload it." I will never give more than one supplement at a time. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| rodeocr8zy - 2014-10-18 2:40 PM
I have talked to several GREAT vets that are local to me and they say the same thing about supplements. If you are feeding quality hay, salt block, and fresh water, there should be no reason to supplement. She told me this, "You've heard of selenium poisoning right?" Yes. "People mix up all these supplements and don't realize they're doing more harm than good." Hence the Selenium example. Horses get too much of it, coming from all these supplements. And she said, "Have you heard of Selenium deficiency? Nope. "The horses don't much of it in their diet, but the supplements overload it." I will never give more than one supplement at a time.
Horses were not designed to lick salt from a block, their tongue is not coarse like that of a cow.
Selenium deficiency, actually I hear about it and have seen if first hand, my area we have no selenium in our soil, in our hay, in our grain. I had foals born selenium deficient, and have seen the turn around after giving 3 cc of selenium intramuscular.
The other thing the vet is overlooking, is barrel racing is unnatural, the wear and tear on joints, after each run the horse experiences some inflammation, just like a hockey player, football, baseball, etc. If you were to ask a professional athlete's doctor, their diet is monitored, as well as the supplements.
The problem with horses, is herbs/supplements are not constantly monitored compared to the prescription medication. There is no quality control, and no regulatory body to verify the ingredients in the product match the list.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| I feed 1#/day of renew gold and THE Muscle Mass,
Ulcer prevent+ immune boost and GLC 5000.
To get more of an "individualized" THE MM blend made, Bob, to pair with my renew gold, what type of information do you need? Simply
A CBC panel, or more?
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | This was an interesting thread. Thanks for the kind words. My company has an interesting approach to feeding horses based on the fact that every one involved in our company is a competitive horse person, and has been for many (perhaps too many) years. The fact that the major feed companies don't understand how our products work is a constant source of amusement to us since our customers get it. We are not the only answer to feeding horses, and there are some well made supplements available that truely benefit your horses. People who talk to us know this. My only point in the original post was what a few people here have already said. Balance the diet, and supplement as little as necessary to support that balance. |
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