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Elite Veteran
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| EEEKKK.. Sorry to stir this up. I did "mis-state" in the OP. One of my customers is trying the Ultr-Oz. The low frequency ultrasound?? Lasers were brought up in the "sales pitch" (confusing to me obviously)
I think that I will just let her make the decision to buy or not buy. I will not be purchasing. ((Just for the record..)) Lasers/Ultrasounds whichever it may be. LOL | |
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  Fact Checker
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Location: Displaced Iowegian | This has certainly been a VERY interesting thread.......If I were the seller or involved in the promotion of this product, I would be MORE concerned with explaining the product and it's uses..... rather than conversing with one person......that WAS the OP's question wasn't it???? | |
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Veteran
Posts: 144
| OK, I am doing this on my phone as i sit here at PT. Allison there are some studies been published in the vet journals. As i am on the phone at the moment its hard for me to get hold of when i get them. I will forward them to you when i get them. The point of this whole post was asking about the Ultra Oz machine. This person trashed the machine with out even knowing what it done. He asked for information that i supplied.I understand that he thought it was Laser therapy but even when it was pointed out it was Ultra sound therapy he wanted to divert the conversation to laser therapy. This was to cover up the FACT that he trashed a product that he had no idea about. All he had to do was admit that he was wrong and should not say any thing about a product that he did not know about. The Op asked about a $1200 ultrasound not a laser. I was not on here selling ANY thing just making sure the right information was given, so i don't think i need to defend any thing i am selling on my site unless i get here and try to sell it. As far as Quackery, i don't have a problem with that because this person called Cornell University and haggard quacks so i am in good company. All i have pointed out is a lot of people listen to what he says so he should be more careful what he says and get the facts. he does not like to be wrong. I hope this post is all deleted because its got away from the OPs question. | |
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Fact Checker
Posts: 16569
Location: Displaced Iowegian | Troy Brandenburg - 2014-08-29 11:01 AM OK, I am doing this on my phone as i sit here at PT. Allison there are some studies been published in the vet journals. As i am on the phone at the moment its hard for me to get hold of when i get them. I will forward them to you when i get them. The point of this whole post was asking about the Ultra Oz machine. This person trashed the machine with out even knowing what it done. He asked for information that i supplied.I understand that he thought it was Laser therapy but even when it was pointed out it was Ultra sound therapy he wanted to divert the conversation to laser therapy. This was to cover up the FACT that he trashed a product that he had no idea about. All he had to do was admit that he was wrong and should not say any thing about a product that he did not know about. The Op asked about a $1200 ultrasound not a laser. I was not on here selling ANY thing just making sure the right information was given, so i don't think i need to defend any thing i am selling on my site unless i get here and try to sell it. As far as Quackery, i don't have a problem with that because this person called Cornell University and haggard quacks so i am in good company. All i have pointed out is a lot of people listen to what he says so he should be more careful what he says and get the facts. he does not like to be wrong. I hope this post is all deleted because its got away from the OPs question.
That was MY point exactly.....trying to divert YOU.... BACK to the original question....however, I see that you are more intent on kabitzing about HBL......I guess we will never actually see the answer to her question......carry on with your nonsense....... | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Again, for the umpteenth time, I don't have a problem with ultrasound, and didn't mean to trash it. I explained myself over and over, but Troy wants to perseverate on the same thing. The reason he does is because of my views on naturopathy and it goes back a long time. Since the OP mentioned lasers, that's what caught my attention....hence my comments on the "laser shower" device. I think it is quackery and Troy as side stepped that part of this discussion. Troy sells a lot of good products, but I also think a lot of his naturipathic products are not a good investment, so, as a consumer and critic with NO vested interest and a science background, I speak out on such matters often. Troy, on the other hand, DOES have a vested, financial interest...hence his absence of objectivity. A lot of people fall prey to slogans, clever words, and gimmicks when it comes to Naturipathy....if they say something like "get your natural detoxifier here and support your horse's immune system to optimize his performance". That just grabs attention....and it works, all too often, in my opinion. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 620
Location: Bixby, Ok | Wow Troy this is really over the top. HOt Bear apologized and explained himself and you won't let it go. I think the real issue is that you don't understand what peer reviewed scientific study actually consists of. The links on your page are nothing more than testimonials. They do come from respected sources but they are still not scientific studies! A scientific study is a blind study meaning there are horses treated with the new therapy and others treated with old methods or with no treatment and the results such as length of healing time and degree of return to soundness are measured by proven scientific formulas by individuals who are not privy to which horses received which treatment until after it is published. This ensures that there is no bias in the results. I can find no such studies on the lasers Hot Bear was orginally discussing. There are studies on ultrasound and as Hot Bear stated there is evidence to suggest that ultrasound has a place in medicine and treatment. I think you need to step back and cool off and realize this was never an attack on you personally. I don't believe in all of the hype of certain things on the market either but I don't take those that do as a personal attack on me. JMHO | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Probably the most important development in today's clinical research is the double-blind, placebo control study. It virtually eliminates bias. Pharmaceutical research relies on this all the time. Imagine, if you will, what healthcare would be like if all we relied on was anecdote and testimonial? Healthcare would be Russian roulette, basically. The naturopaths say they do not study their remedies using the same scientific method because such study would drive the cost of their herbs and potients up. That's a convenient excuse, and I think it's a travesty. The truth of the matter is why should they? They have a sweet deal going. They don't have to be controlled or regulated by the FDA. They don't have to adhere to the same quality control standards. All they need to do is get some testimonials from people with a degree from a respected university, or perhaps some athletes or celebrities. I mean, after all, if Kim Kardashian says it works, or if some rodeo competitor says it works, surely it must, right? Never mind the fact that they get paid to say what they say. The problem is if a person sells a device that is unproven, and you attempt to debunk the myths about that device, you are goring their Ox and you can expect a viscious response.
I've had my own Ox gored a time or two as a surgeon. Here's a classic example. During my training and for the first 6-7 years of my practice, the "gold standard" for treating gallbladder disease was the standard open cholecystectomy. Here's what it entailed: you make an incision anywhere from 5 inches to 10 inches long in the right upper quadrant of the abdomen, just below the rib cage. You cut and burn through all the muscle layers of the abdominal wall. You insert devices to pry the abdomen open as wide as possible so you can see the gallbladder. The gallbladder is grasped and removed from the undersurface of the liver, either with cautery or scissors. Often times the "bed" of the gallbladder beneath the liver oozes a lot so you literally burn that surface until the bleeding stops, sometimes leaving behind mountains or charred dead flesh. Fortunately the human body has amazing healing abilities, so usually there is no consequence. Often times you leave a plastic drain to drain the serum, blood, and fluid from the space formerly occupied by the gallbladder. Because this is such a traumatic operation, the bowel is temporarily paralyzed....a so-called ileus. This meant you had to have an NG tube through your nose into your stomach, or else you will retch and vomit with a painful fresh incision....not fun. After a day or two, perhaps longer, the NG tube and the drain are removed. If you are lucky, you are allowed to drink liquids by the 2nd or 3rd day, and maybe you will go home in 5-7 days....maybe. The operation was actually very safe and serious complications were pretty uncommon.
In the late 80s they started doing these laparoscopically and this was widely criticised, initially in the surgical community. "Why do they have to go through all this to do an operation that is already proven and easy?" was the usual retort. Within 2-3 years it started catching on like wildfire. Instead of a big barbaric incision, you had 4 tiny stab holes. There was no drain or no NG tube. People went home the next day, and now it is very common for them to go home the same day. They eat regular food almost right away. Complications are fewer. Mortality is less. The operation takes less time. Are there exceptions and complications, certainly, but the for the vast majority this was just a bump in the road. Within a couple days people were back at work.
Now, it is the "gold standard". In fact, within a few short years it became the gold standard. How is this possible? Scientific analysis and peer reviewed studies in reputable journals. Testimonials and endorsements had no place. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 144
| I walked away from this because it was going no were but i felt that hot bear was attacking me because i pointed out that he was wrong in trashing a product that he had NO idea about. Second he kept wanting to bring the laser up to lead people away from the fact that he was wrong and was talking about something with out doing the full research, a fact he does not have a problem telling every one else to do. In fact this is a classic case of a so call educated man who people believing in misleading people. Yes research can be read in many different ways and NONE of us know all the facts. Some things work for some people and not for all. Every day there is research being done to prove and disprove things we all believe in. It is a fact that there are products and therapies that do work with very little research because people have not put the money into it. But forget research and get back to the facts in this case. I pointed out that he should have at lest looked at the whole picture before he trashed the product. I told him that people listen to what he says and FOR THAT REASON he should know all the facts first. I understand he only read Laser therapy but is that a Excuse to trade something? I feel he was attacking me because i pointed out that he spoke out of turn and it made him look bad. It should not matter what i sell on my site, Yes i sell lasers, Magnetic equipment even herbs. All things he does not believe in so that means they don't work. He might not believe them but there are a LOT of people that do, Vets and other research people use them every day, so does that mean they are Quackers to? Not the thing that really got me was when he said i had a vested interest in this because i sell equipment. Yes i do but if he even knew ANY thing about me he would know i am a bad sales person. I have save people lots of money and time by either advising them that they don't need this equipment or telling them what they can use for a less expensive price. Oh and i don't always have the equipment i advise them about. I have even give equipment to people to use because they had no money and the horse needed it. It is a known fact that i will do the best for the horse not for me. I don't feel he was apologizing for trashing the product by keep referring to my laser. This will be the very last time i will every go near barrel horse world because its becoming a lot of bullies. I know thats why some people don't come on her. This site could have been a great place to share information but what a shame. Go ahead people Flame away but if you think its ok then thats your right. I finished on here and if you have a problem with me feel free to call. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Troy, I have said that I think you sell some good products. You can just keep repeating the same thing over and over again. I've already explained myself. As has been pointed out by someone else, you don't really understand very much when it comes to knowing what constitutes scientific research and peer reviewed scientific literature.
You refuse to offer any defense of my statement that your $6000 laser shower device is unproven quackery -basically buyer beware. I posted my evidence in support of my position.....you posted nothing. All you did was try to deflect what has been my focus right from the start. | |
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Expert
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | readytorodeo - 2014-12-27 7:32 AM Bump
Why did you bump this arguement? LMAO! | |
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Expert
Posts: 3514
| Trying to get info on it from people who have one | |
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