|
|
 Veteran
Posts: 134
 
| Hi - i have been reviewing all of my geldings medical history and have discovered a pattern. All in his right hind, he has shown me a hip (possible SI), suspensory, and hock. I have been contemplating hock injections but i want to understand if anyone has that many issues in a single limb and are they related? the history from a year ago stated this:
Exam: Trotting in a straight line, Grade 3/5 lame RH on R upper limb flexion, Grade 2/5 lame RF in the
right circle, sound going right following RF heel block, then grade 2/5 lame LF. Sound at trot in both
directions following LF heel block. Moderately sensitive on Churchhill palpation over distal hock joints.
Hooftester positive over RF and LF heels. No other abnormalities noted. On radiographic exam, the RH
distal hock has mild arthritic changes and the RH proximal cannon bone at suspensory origin reveals an
increase in density indicating remodeling of the suspensory origin.
Diagnosis: Mild RH hock arthritis and bilateral forelimb heel pain
About a month ago, his suspensory flared up again. the ultrasound showed no injury/damamge. can his hocks be causing him to not use himself correctly and he will continue to keep aggrivating his suspensory? I am going to have his hocks injected but want to understand if by doing this, can i hurt or help the suspensory?
Edited by htaucher1 2014-09-25 6:54 AM
|
|
| |
|
  Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
 
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | My gelding had many issues over his right leg, couldn't tell if it was hip, hock, SI or what. The only issue we found was a strained ligament in his left front so yes they can injure and make other areas sore by over compensating for the origional soreness.
I am not a huge fan of injections, but if they are NEEDED than yes, worth a try. |
|
| |
|
 Tough Patooty
Posts: 2615
 
Location: Sperry, OK | Exam: Trotting in a straight line, Grade 3/5 lame RH on R upper limb flexion, Grade 2/5 lame RF in the
right circle, sound going right following RF heel block, then grade 2/5 lame LF. Sound at trot in both
directions following LF heel block. Moderately sensitive on Churchhill palpation over distal hock joints.
Hooftester positive over RF and LF heels. No other abnormalities noted. On radiographic exam, the RH
distal hock has mild arthritic changes and the RH proximal cannon bone at suspensory origin reveals an
increase in density indicating remodeling of the suspensory origin.
Diagnosis: Mild RH hock arthritis and bilateral forelimb heel pain
What did you do to correct the heal pain in the front feet? Sounds like he could be having all the hind end problems because he is trying to get off the front end.... just a thought.
Edited by ACEINTHEHOLE 2014-09-25 8:45 AM
|
|
| |
|
 Pork Fat is my Favorite
Posts: 3791
Location: The Oklahoma plains. | ^^^^^^^what she said.....and I would like to add that MANY times EPM presents in right rear "lameness like" issue but usually looks more like stifle. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 134
| ACEINTHEHOLE - 2014-09-25 9:43 AM Exam: Trotting in a straight line, Grade 3/5 lame RH on R upper limb flexion, Grade 2/5 lame RF in the
right circle, sound going right following RF heel block, then grade 2/5 lame LF. Sound at trot in both
directions following LF heel block. Moderately sensitive on Churchhill palpation over distal hock joints.
Hooftester positive over RF and LF heels. No other abnormalities noted. On radiographic exam, the RH
distal hock has mild arthritic changes and the RH proximal cannon bone at suspensory origin reveals an
increase in density indicating remodeling of the suspensory origin.
Diagnosis: Mild RH hock arthritis and bilateral forelimb heel pain
What did you do to correct the heal pain in the front feet? Sounds like he could be having all the hind end problems because he is trying to get off the front end.... just a thought.
We fixed the fronts with a correction program to get him off his heels. he had too much toe and had underrun heels. he isnt showing heel pain anymore and has been sound for a year.
|
|
| |
|
Elite Veteran
Posts: 975
Location: The barn...where else? SW Missouri | TurnLane - 2014-09-25 8:48 AM ^^^^^^^what she said.....and I would like to add that MANY times EPM presents in right rear "lameness like" issue but usually looks more like stifle.
This was the first place my brain went. I just treated my mare for EPM and read numerous articles about it showing up in the right side. My mare didn't have lameness but was showing other symptoms. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 134
| TurnLane - 2014-09-25 9:48 AM ^^^^^^^what she said.....and I would like to add that MANY times EPM presents in right rear "lameness like" issue but usually looks more like stifle.
I have noticed a lot of EPM discussions. Why the sudden spike? I have read about EPM and he shows no other sysmptom and has known arthritis. Is EPM becomeing more common or just an increase in the ability to diagnos it? |
|
| |
|
Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | I have heard that many vets will treat for EPM when other causes of lameness just aren't found. It may be pricey to treat, but if it is a last resort, I sure think it is worth it. Here in WY EPM is the last thing on any vet's mind. We just don't have the possums, although I have heard coons can cause it now, and we have plenty of those. |
|
| |
|
 Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | I've had two that I fought lameness issues on that both started in the right rear....looked at all the possibilities for the soreness/lameness. Injected hocks, stifles, SI, whorlbone, etc....Finally gave up on one of them because he kept falling or slipping behind in his turns and put him out in the pasture for five months. I had an appointment for a couple of other horses and threw him in the trailer to see if Dr. White could see something that the vets up here were missing. He tested him for EPM and of course he was positive. We treated him with IV Diclazuril and he came back to what I consider 90% for running barrels, but he's great for roping. I feel like if he had been treated at the beginning he would have been 100%.
I'm learning that EPM has an infinite list of symptoms. We are currently treating one that we bought cheap because he was so sensitive and touchy on the ground he wouldn't work for just anyone. He's had 18 months cutting training and fantastic to ride, but very waspy on the ground. Within 4 days of treatment he has mellowed out into the sweetest colt you could ever want....no more flinching, setting back, showing the whites of his eyes, shying away from your hand, NOTHING. I only treated him because he didn't fatten up the way I wanted him to after a Power Pac, and knowing how much he was being fed. |
|
| |
|
Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | wyoming barrel racer - 2014-09-25 10:19 AM I have heard that many vets will treat for EPM when other causes of lameness just aren't found. It may be pricey to treat, but if it is a last resort, I sure think it is worth it. Here in WY EPM is the last thing on any vet's mind. We just don't have the possums, although I have heard coons can cause it now, and we have plenty of those.
I don't consider the cost that pricey anymore. Marquis is still expensive, but there are much better treatments that cost less than half of what you'll pay for Marquis with fewer relapses. www.pathogenes.com |
|
| |
|
 I too, shall remain nameless!
Posts: 2248
Location: Wearing a winter coat...... | htaucher1 - 2014-09-25 11:05 AM
TurnLane - 2014-09-25 9:48 AM ^^^^^^^what she said.....and I would like to add that MANY times EPM presents in right rear "lameness like" issue but usually looks more like stifle.
I have noticed a lot of EPM discussions. Why the sudden spike? I have read about EPM and he shows no other sysmptom and has known arthritis. Is EPM becomeing more common or just an increase in the ability to diagnos it?
JMO opinion but I don't think you are dealing with EPM issues. Not that I was the master at it before two days ago but.....LOL |
|
| |
|
 Elite Veteran
Posts: 1001
Location: Kansas | I could write a book on what I have been dealing with for the last three summers on hind end lameness, specifically on the right.... I recently contacted KSU to discuss setting up an appt for a bone scan after going through a very long list of symptoms/ treatments what I saw results from and what not I scheduled an appt last Friday for another lameness exam... my exam was cut short in the middle of flexion tests and another Dr who deals with all EPM cases stepped in and started doing some tests on all 4 limbs, she was a 2/5 ataxia on all four. We xrayed her neck to rule out wobblers. Went ahead and drew blood to test for EPM, I am patiently waiting for the results. I have seen many different vets and had asked each vet if EPM was a possibility - all said NO and the basic tests were done - tail pull etc. I would not rule a chance it could be EPM, I wish I would have tested a long time ago. |
|
| |
|
Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | I have only had one out of six that showed anything from the "tail pull" test. The first three had EPM ruled out by more than one qualified vet, but were magically cured of their lameness issues once I treated them for EPM.
For anyone to step up and rule out EPM for any reason shows that they don't know much about this disease. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 490
Location: TEXAS | have you done a rectal exam on your horse if not , do that check for rotated pelvic a friend had this problem and thats what they found .
|
|
| |
|
Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | rachellyn80 - 2014-09-25 9:45 AM wyoming barrel racer - 2014-09-25 10:19 AM I have heard that many vets will treat for EPM when other causes of lameness just aren't found. It may be pricey to treat, but if it is a last resort, I sure think it is worth it. Here in WY EPM is the last thing on any vet's mind. We just don't have the possums, although I have heard coons can cause it now, and we have plenty of those. I don't consider the cost that pricey anymore. Marquis is still expensive, but there are much better treatments that cost less than half of what you'll pay for Marquis with fewer relapses. www.pathogenes.com
I will be honest that I don't know about it much. I am only saying it is pricey $200-$300+ to treat if the horse doesn't actually have it. I would do it in a heartbeat if I thought it would help though. The horse I was gearing towards treating, started to show improvement once we found his front foot issue and addressed it. I tested with a blood test that showed low titers of actually having EPM, I still asked the vet to order the meds but he has never done a thing with EPM and didn't find the Oroquin or whatever it is called that pathogens.com recommended. At that point the horse was showing so much improvement from being wrapped, PHT and a pulsing Magnetic boot thing, that I decided to not order any for now. That is my only experience with anything EPM. |
|
| |
|
Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | SEEMERUN3 - 2014-09-25 12:03 PM have you done a rectal exam on your horse if not , do that check for rotated pelvic a friend had this problem and thats what they found .
I would have suggested that too after having one show soreness but no lameness-it was a fractured pelvis.
This horse, per the poster's info, had been diagnosed with what is wrong. I imagine the front is making the hind end sore or had in the past enough to cause lasting damage. Bad hocks are bad hocks. If it is showing in x rays, then just try and maintain from here on out. It is all you can do. For it all being the right side vs the left, my chiro said horses are like people, they use one side more than the other. |
|
| |
|
Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | htaucher1 - 2014-09-25 5:52 AM Hi - i have been reviewing all of my geldings medical history and have discovered a pattern. All in his right hind, he has shown me a hip (possible SI), suspensory, and hock. I have been contemplating hock injections but i want to understand if anyone has that many issues in a single limb and are they related? the history from a year ago stated this:
Exam: Trotting in a straight line, Grade 3/5 lame RH on R upper limb flexion, Grade 2/5 lame RF in the
right circle, sound going right following RF heel block, then grade 2/5 lame LF. Sound at trot in both
directions following LF heel block. Moderately sensitive on Churchhill palpation over distal hock joints.
Hooftester positive over RF and LF heels. No other abnormalities noted. On radiographic exam, the RH
distal hock has mild arthritic changes and the RH proximal cannon bone at suspensory origin reveals an
increase in density indicating remodeling of the suspensory origin.
Diagnosis: Mild RH hock arthritis and bilateral forelimb heel pain
About a month ago, his suspensory flared up again. the ultrasound showed no injury/damamge. can his hocks be causing him to not use himself correctly and he will continue to keep aggrivating his suspensory? I am going to have his hocks injected but want to understand if by doing this, can i hurt or help the suspensory?
Heck if I know, but I don't see how making his hocks feel better can hurt his suspensory's unless he gets to feeling better and running harder? If that is the case, I think they would have problems down the line anyways. If vet shows no actual injury or damage to the suspensory, I would treat the hocks and go from there |
|
| |
|
Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | That's where I started going in circles with this disease as well. Mine would slip and hurt himself, or be sore after being worked harder than normal, or feel like his stifle was slipping....just didn't feel right, but not an identifiable source. I would get one thing fixed and then he would be sore somewhere else. We did rear legs, front legs, back, changed saddles, had muscle therapy done on him, chiro, you name it.... Just as a random FYI...injecting a horse will exacerbate the issue if they have EPM.
He has not needed one injection since we had him treated. He looks better physically and moves freer and easier than he ever has. He only tested mildly positive as well. If the disease is there it can be "activated" with stress or a lowered immune system. |
|
| |
|
 Expert
Posts: 2335
Location: IL | htaucher1 - 2014-09-25 6:52 AM Hi - i have been reviewing all of my geldings medical history and have discovered a pattern. All in his right hind, he has shown me a hip (possible SI), suspensory, and hock. I have been contemplating hock injections but i want to understand if anyone has that many issues in a single limb and are they related? the history from a year ago stated this:
Exam: Trotting in a straight line, Grade 3/5 lame RH on R upper limb flexion, Grade 2/5 lame RF in the
right circle, sound going right following RF heel block, then grade 2/5 lame LF. Sound at trot in both
directions following LF heel block. Moderately sensitive on Churchhill palpation over distal hock joints.
Hooftester positive over RF and LF heels. No other abnormalities noted. On radiographic exam, the RH
distal hock has mild arthritic changes and the RH proximal cannon bone at suspensory origin reveals an
increase in density indicating remodeling of the suspensory origin.
Diagnosis: Mild RH hock arthritis and bilateral forelimb heel pain
About a month ago, his suspensory flared up again. the ultrasound showed no injury/damamge. can his hocks be causing him to not use himself correctly and he will continue to keep aggrivating his suspensory? I am going to have his hocks injected but want to understand if by doing this, can i hurt or help the suspensory?
Oh my this sounds like my husband gelding!! Please let us know the out come. |
|
| |
|
Pork Fat is my Favorite
Posts: 3791
Location: The Oklahoma plains. | rachellyn80 - 2014-09-25 1:31 PM That's where I started going in circles with this disease as well. Mine would slip and hurt himself, or be sore after being worked harder than normal, or feel like his stifle was slipping....just didn't feel right, but not an identifiable source. I would get one thing fixed and then he would be sore somewhere else. We did rear legs, front legs, back, changed saddles, had muscle therapy done on him, chiro, you name it.... Just as a random FYI...injecting a horse will exacerbate the issue if they have EPM.
He has not needed one injection since we had him treated. He looks better physically and moves freer and easier than he ever has. He only tested mildly positive as well. If the disease is there it can be "activated" with stress or a lowered immune system.
Exactly- and like you said- steroid is not good for an EPM horse so injections can actually be a bad thing.
Proof that all horses likely have issues we can see on radiographs yet not be the issue that is bothering them.
And kind of off the EPM topic, I will say- this is another reason the Lameness locator is helpful with transient lameness issues. |
|
| |
Folks on-line