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 Expert
Posts: 5293
  
| GLP - 2015-07-23 7:23 AM
I must admit that it makes me nervous to adjust my feed to just oats, alfalfa and a little grass hay and limited turn out on grass. My horses are pretty much on dry lot right now until we can do some brush control. I am going to have my grass hay tested since the store I get it from only uses 1 source. The alfalfa hay we get here in South Texas is always really stemmy, so I am looking into going with the Omni cubes, but the nearest place to get them is 2 hours away. However, what I have been doing has not worked on 2 of my horses, so a change is needed. I am also having trouble letting go of my need to use a vitamin/mineral supplement, lol. But again, I am going to try Dr. Schell's advice as closely as possible. If anyone else tries this would you please keep us updated? I plan to update - to me this is very important stuff.
I just asked Herbie this same question. I feed high quality Alfalfa/Orchard grass mix hay as well. Same source. I have always fed Formula 707 daily essentials. 1 oz daily to each horse. That way each horse gets what it needs. I am ALL FOR going to just hay and Whole oats if they will get what they need. | |
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  Whack and Roll
Posts: 6342
Location: NE Texas | Sorry, took me a minute to get back over here. Yes, I think that alfalfa will provide a good amount of vitamins and minerals our horses need daily, of course the only way to truly know what they're truly consuming is to test the actual forage itself with each load we get. However I think the REAL GOAL here is to provide any additional vitamins and minerals our horses consume in a natural whole food source rather than an artificial, man made/synthetic form. As quoted above, the whole oats are mainly a medium to provide the supplementation. The diet should be 90% GOOD quality forage and 10% grain, but ideally needs to be whole grains, not concentrates with filler or synthetic ingredients.
There is a product available that has been designed to complement the whole food diet, aid proper digestion, and add any vit/min through herbs, however I have not personally used it. It' is called rejuvenate. Here is the link: https://nouvelleresearch.com/index.php/products/equine-formulas/cur-ost-eq-rejuvenate#hikashop_show_tabular_description | |
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Whack and Roll
Posts: 6342
Location: NE Texas | Good morning BHW, I spoke with Dr. Schell this morning via email and he shared a bit more information with me on this subject, so I thought i'd share with you all as well. This year has been an educational one for me without a doubt and I continue to be hungry to learn more.
From Dr. Schell in regards to feed and feeding:
"When it comes to feed regimens for horses, we have to step back in time and look at what was being fed years ago, not only to work horses but to race horses including Secretariat. In those days, commercial feeds were not available, and most owners or trainers were feeding whole oats and alfalfa. They didn't have vitamin/mineral supplements or probiotics in those days and those horses were tough! True that we had incidences of tying up in work horses, but we still have that problem today, actually higher incidence likely, despite fancy diets. We are all concerned about what is 'right' for our horse in terms of a balanced diet, proper nutrients and instead of just relying on mother nature, we turn to synthetics to balance that regimen out. I think this is a mistake on many levels and ends up causing us to chase our own tail, fixing one problem, then creating another. In actuality, a balanced diet for one horse may not be balanced for another. They are not machines, but are unique individuals with their own needs. We put them all into one group, feeding this or that supplement that is supposed to balance their diet, when in fact we need to be 'reading' our horses instead. By looking at them, their body condition, performance, hair coat, hoof condition and other factors, we can better determine what that horse needs. Sometimes they need adjustments to their diet, but in other cases, the problem is not dietary related. This is common in hoof problems with cracks and splitting or even thin soles. I'd guess that 80% of these situations are due to improper balance, trimming and weight bearing, which then stresses the hoof improperly leading to the above mentioned issues. A horse really should be able to get all of the nutrients they need from pasture and forage alone, unless there is a deficiency in that source. Grains are great for energy in the working horse, but in most, they really are only needed in small volumes. In our horses, we feed only 1-2 lbs daily of a whole grain blend, intending to support energy due to their training, but we also use it as a medium for their Cur-OST supplements. I know that many are hesitant to move to whole cereal grains, but the fear in doing this is not natural. Feeding them is natural. In our rehab patients, the first thing I do is move them to whole cereal grains. Many actually turn their nose up at whole oats, not knowing what they are and not liking the taste. Odd, as this is what they were intended to eat actually. They turn away from it because it is natural with no added sugars, sweeteners or preservatives. Over a few days, with some manipulation, they soon consume them with no issues and then we begin to implement the proper supplement to target the main condition, along with addressing other issues such as the feet. Owners always ask how much to feed and there is no right or wrong, just depends on your horse as an individual and what they need. There should be no reason to dry lot a horse in my opinion. If we have to do this, then we have a problem that is not being addressed correctly. I understand that many do not have access to alfalfa, orchard or other quality hay, which is something I cannot help with, but if we chose not to feed those high quality hays, then we have to understand the consequences that may come as a result of poor nutritional value. I am not saying that one has to feed alfalfa, but if we feed bermuda, fescue or other low quality hay, then we have to understand the consequences. In those situations, we may have to supplement the diet, but if I had to do that, I would chose whole foods to provide those nutrients." | |
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Expert
Posts: 5293
| THanks for posting that, its exactly what Dr. Schell and I talked about this morning. We didn't talk about the horses who refuse to eat the oats,, lol Glad you posted that... | |
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Expert
Posts: 2122
Location: The Great Northwest | A analysis should be done on hay you feed to know what if any thing needs to be supplemented. The same type of hay in another location can be different in nutrients. I find that Orchard Grass has a inverted calcium and phosphorus ratio. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1165
Location: California | Where can I find info on Omni Cubes? I googled it but that wasn't useful.... | |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| Google Danco Omni Performance cubes | |
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 Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | Serenity06 - 2015-07-24 10:09 AM Where can I find info on Omni Cubes? I googled it but that wasn't useful....
Go to the Danco Forage facebook page. They have a list of dealers. There are several in Texas. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1207
| I am so liking this post. I too am ready to get my feeding program on an even level. So tired of dealing with this or that. I am liking the BB feed but would still like to get it simple. I feed the alfalfa cubes from TSC, I wonder if that would be alright with the oats. They are on pasture 24/7. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | Interesting article. This pretty much follows my thinking concerning probiotics. The best way to have a proper population of beneficial bacteria in the hind guy is not to add more, but rather to quit killing what is naturally occurring. one way that this is done is by controlling disruptions to the natural digestive process by limiting grain based concentrates to the amount that can be digested higher in the system, and limiting any added concentrates to less than two pounds per feeding. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1165
Location: California | Thank you! Looks like the closest dealer to me is almost 2 hours away :( | |
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 Goat Giver
Posts: 23166
| I disagree with much in this and have debated on posting for days. My personal experience is that pre and pro biotics can literally be a life saver. My graduate equine nutrition class taught me that oats were not one of the worst feeds out there in regard to biological value. For those who say it is more "natural," grass was natural. Until man came along and harvested oats to feed, horses did not eat them. I know people who fed sorghum and corn instead of oats to horses because that is what they grew on the farm. Those horses did fine because they had a foraged based feed situation. I feed a lot of wheat hay and they get some wheat with their forage...it is not the make or break portion of the diet. Horses live longer now and nutrition research pioneered by Dr. Potter whom I studied under has taught us how to better feed them for long lives and better performance. All horses are individuals. I am feeding everything from no grain to Renew Gold to Equine senior. Some horses are nervous and ulcer prone despite a proper diet, but the symptoms can be mitigated with proper handling. Last year at a 4 day barrel race our ulcer horse stressed so badly I almost left him at the vet for fluids on the way home. We just returned from an intensive 4 day clinic and he came through it great. He got probiotics in the form of Equipride with his Renew Gold which was fed 4 times a day. He got electrolytes and a hauling buddy. I also took wheat hay and alfalfa so he could choose which ever one he wanted at the time. There is NO one size fits all in horses and one can find research to support almost any preconceived notion. I will continue to trust my eye, personal experience and common sense.
I also picked up a very thin horse to bring home at the same time. He was not making apples. One feeding of Equine Senior and Equipride and we had apples. He has already gained weight. | |
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Expert
Posts: 5293
| kmcsunshine - 2015-07-25 8:02 AM
I disagree with much in this and have debated on posting for days. My personal experience is that pre and pro biotics can literally be a life saver. My graduate equine nutrition class taught me that oats were not one of the worst feeds out there in regard to biological value. For those who say it is more "natural," grass was natural. Until man came along and harvested oats to feed, horses did not eat them. I know people who fed sorghum and corn instead of oats to horses because that is what they grew on the farm. Those horses did fine because they had a foraged based feed situation. I feed a lot of wheat hay and they get some wheat with their forage...it is not the make or break portion of the diet. Horses live longer now and nutrition research pioneered by Dr. Potter whom I studied under has taught us how to better feed them for long lives and better performance. All horses are individuals. I am feeding everything from no grain to Renew Gold to Equine senior. Some horses are nervous and ulcer prone despite a proper diet, but the symptoms can be mitigated with proper handling. Last year at a 4 day barrel race our ulcer horse stressed so badly I almost left him at the vet for fluids on the way home. We just returned from an intensive 4 day clinic and he came through it great. He got probiotics in the form of Equipride with his Renew Gold which was fed 4 times a day. He got electrolytes and a hauling buddy. I also took wheat hay and alfalfa so he could choose which ever one he wanted at the time. There is NO one size fits all in horses and one can find research to support almost any preconceived notion. I will continue to trust my eye, personal experience and common sense.Â
I also picked up a very thin horse to bring home at the same time. He was not making apples. One feeding of Equine Senior and Equipride and we had apples. He has already gained weight.Â
I took an equine nutrition class to, and have chosen to believe Dr. Schell who is a vet and a specialist in this area. I took my horses off all processed feeds. So much of what is happening in the human world is happening in the horse world. So many human diseases because of improper nutrition, sugars etc. we are slowly killing our horses the same way. | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | winwillows - 2015-07-24 5:04 PM Interesting article. This pretty much follows my thinking concerning probiotics. The best way to have a proper population of beneficial bacteria in the hind guy is not to add more, but rather to quit killing what is naturally occurring. one way that this is done is by controlling disruptions to the natural digestive process by limiting grain based concentrates to the amount that can be digested higher in the system, and limiting any added concentrates to less than two pounds per feeding.
I agree with this.
Everyone has an opinion but I think some are over loading their horse's systems with too much probiotics. Yes, I sell FORCO but I've been a customer since 1996 and was feeding it because I believe 100% in the product. I only became a dealer a few years ago. I also know that if a horse has chronic gut issues it's not going to take care of it and then I would look into the product that Herbie has listed. I do give probios for a few days after de-worming and/or after giving meds since they kill off the good bacteria in the gut.
Along with keeping our feeds simple, I also think we should do the same with everything else we give them. I have an older, healthy horse but I put him on FORCO becuase he was gassy and had hard stools. The FORCO ended the gas and he now has the perfect manure apple.. If he didn't have any issues I wouldn't be feeding him anything. I give the THE products as needed, not just because.
I now have my older gelding on the Mustang Sally Cubes, free choice Coastal, which he is eating about 2 small flakes a day, Renew Gold, 4 cups of Beet Pulp, Redmond's minerals and FORCO. It's working great for him. | |
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Goat Giver
Posts: 23166
| FLITASTIC - 2015-07-25 11:21 AM kmcsunshine - 2015-07-25 8:02 AM I disagree with much in this and have debated on posting for days. My personal experience is that pre and pro biotics can literally be a life saver. My graduate equine nutrition class taught me that oats were not one of the worst feeds out there in regard to biological value. For those who say it is more "natural," grass was natural. Until man came along and harvested oats to feed, horses did not eat them. I know people who fed sorghum and corn instead of oats to horses because that is what they grew on the farm. Those horses did fine because they had a foraged based feed situation. I feed a lot of wheat hay and they get some wheat with their forage...it is not the make or break portion of the diet. Horses live longer now and nutrition research pioneered by Dr. Potter whom I studied under has taught us how to better feed them for long lives and better performance. All horses are individuals. I am feeding everything from no grain to Renew Gold to Equine senior. Some horses are nervous and ulcer prone despite a proper diet, but the symptoms can be mitigated with proper handling. Last year at a 4 day barrel race our ulcer horse stressed so badly I almost left him at the vet for fluids on the way home. We just returned from an intensive 4 day clinic and he came through it great. He got probiotics in the form of Equipride with his Renew Gold which was fed 4 times a day. He got electrolytes and a hauling buddy. I also took wheat hay and alfalfa so he could choose which ever one he wanted at the time. There is NO one size fits all in horses and one can find research to support almost any preconceived notion. I will continue to trust my eye, personal experience and common sense.
I also picked up a very thin horse to bring home at the same time. He was not making apples. One feeding of Equine Senior and Equipride and we had apples. He has already gained weight. I took an equine nutrition class to, and have chosen to believe Dr. Schell who is a vet and a specialist in this area. I took my horses off all processed feeds. So much of what is happening in the human world is happening in the horse world. So many human diseases because of improper nutrition, sugars etc. we are slowly killing our horses the same way.
It wasn't just a class. It was a graduate level class with research involved. Dr. Potter was the first one to canulate a horse rather than use beef cattle data for horses. When I was there, we were doing research on feeding fat which included some of us keeping the horses ridden so he could do muscle biopsies to compare muscle enzymes and what not used respective to fats verses carbs for an energy source. I will never believe grains are the best feed and feel that many horses ran or performed well inspite of them, not because of them. How many horses were probably sold because of bad behavior due to ulcers way back when? I know Tres would have never made a barrel horse or even a ranch horse if oats were his only option. It took me two years to learn how to manage not only his diet, but his environment. Now if I can keep my kid lined out, they might go make a showing.
As I said, I feel that horses are individuals and I was not trying to argue, just to point out that fact. I may die tomorrow from eating processed food, but dollars to donuts, the pulmonary fibrosis I inherited will be what kills me regardless of what I consume. | |
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 Quarter Horse HIstorian
Posts: 2878
Location: Aubrey, Texas | Herbie, I find it interesting that this is beginning to come full circle. Back in the '60's, when my dad was very active in the Quarter Horse business, he only fed whole oats, alfalfa hay, and clean water. His horses had grain and hay in front of them 24/7 and we never had any trouble with colic, founder, or tying up. And trust me, we had a LOT of good horses go through our place! He would slowly build a horse up to full feed when he got it in and, of course, they were exercised daily. He maintained that the closer you kept a horse to Nature, the better off they were. The hay bins were built into the corner of the stall and the horses ate with their heads down. The stalls were concrete blocks halfway up and stout wire mesh the rest of the way- they could see all the other horses in the barn. Shiny hair was brought out by a curry-comb, natural bristle brush, and elbow grease only. We never had any stable vices- I didn't know what those were until I went to college. Daddy showed a lot of former race horse studs- St. Bar and Kidnap Bar to name a couple- and they transitioned great to his program.
I have heard that the body doesn't recognize synthetic vitamins- only those that occur naturally. The only thing that concerns me now is the condition of our soils- whether they are depleted or not. We lived in Gainesville on Black Gumbo- awful when it rained but really strong for growing crops and grass! I'm sure it would be a good idea to have your hay checked. | |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | cloverleaf - 2015-07-25 8:54 PM Herbie, I find it interesting that this is beginning to come full circle. Back in the '60's, when my dad was very active in the Quarter Horse business, he only fed whole oats, alfalfa hay, and clean water. His horses had grain and hay in front of them 24/7 and we never had any trouble with colic, founder, or tying up. And trust me, we had a LOT of good horses go through our place! He would slowly build a horse up to full feed when he got it in and, of course, they were exercised daily. He maintained that the closer you kept a horse to Nature, the better off they were. The hay bins were built into the corner of the stall and the horses ate with their heads down. The stalls were concrete blocks halfway up and stout wire mesh the rest of the way- they could see all the other horses in the barn. Shiny hair was brought out by a curry-comb, natural bristle brush, and elbow grease only. We never had any stable vices- I didn't know what those were until I went to college. Daddy showed a lot of former race horse studs- St. Bar and Kidnap Bar to name a couple- and they transitioned great to his program. I have heard that the body doesn't recognize synthetic vitamins- only those that occur naturally. The only thing that concerns me now is the condition of our soils- whether they are depleted or not. We lived in Gainesville on Black Gumbo- awful when it rained but really strong for growing crops and grass! I'm sure it would be a good idea to have your hay checked.
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