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Expert
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Location: Willows, CA | At the risk of stirring up a hornets next here, I want to just make a couple of points about feed through joint health products. I get asked about these just about every day. The answer is usually this. The best ones can improve range of motion and comfort if the issue the horse is suffering from is directly related to inflammation resulting from a lack of the quality or quantity of synovial fluid in the target joint. These products provide very little help beyond this. Damaged structure like torn ligaments or muscle tissue, or fractured bones will generally not be helped with feed through supplements. This is not meant to condemn feed through joint supplements. Just because they do not fix everything does not mean that they have no useful purpose in both daily support and relief from chronic situations mentioned above. Dr Gary Kaufman of Scottsdale and I did a full clinical trial on a flex product that I formulated for Absorbine called Flex+ a number of years ago. This trial had over 40,000 measurements on 55 horses. There were clear repeatable clinical improvements shown on horses that had chronic lameness from the joint issues discussed above. So, they do not fix everything, nor do they fix nothing. In the proper application they can be very effective. It would be unfair to compare feed through to injectables. In general they serve different purposes, pose different risks, and offer different potential long term results.
Edited by winwillows 2015-08-18 1:05 PM
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 Elite Veteran
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Location: London Ontario | Is there a product you recommend to work the best as a feed through for minor stuff and preventative? |
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 Undercover Amish Mafia Member
Posts: 9992
 
Location: Kansas | what about MSM? |
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | MC1993 - 2015-08-18 1:17 PM
Is there a product you recommend to work the best as a feed through for minor stuff and preventative?
I don't know what you can get in Canada. Platinum makes a good product. I have heard good things about MVP. I have used one that is made in California by Sher Mar called Four Flex. It may seem strange, but my two requirements for these products is that they use human grade ingredients, and actually put in the bucket what they say that they do. You would be surprised how many off brand products do not really have what they claim in the product. |
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Expert
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Location: Willows, CA | hoofs_in_motion - 2015-08-18 1:24 PM
what about MSM?Â
I used MSM in the formulation that I did for Absorbine and other companies over the years. |
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  Whack and Roll
Posts: 6342
Location: NE Texas | Cur-Ost, period, the end. It's not a "joint supplement", but if the gut is working correctly and the inflammatory response is working correctly, the inflammtion is at a controlled level rather than putting a band-aid on this issue, and many others. For those that have ready the issues i've had with my horse over the past year and the changes in him, this program is the only "supplement" i'll ever feed again. And I can't even really call it a supplement. There is a topic on the forum at https://www.secondvet.com/index.php/forum/equine titled, "Office Hours; Grasping The Concept of Inflammation". This is a great read and really goes into detail about how inflammation in the gut can and does cause inflammatory issues elsewhere in the body, including joints. There is a better way to manage the pain and achieve a healthy inflammatory response in our performance horses and I can say without a doubt, Cur-Ost is it. I cannot say thank you enough to Dr. Schell and his team for getting my horse back in the arena! |
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | Herbie - 2015-08-18 2:28 PM
Cur-Ost, period, the end. It's not a "joint supplement", but if the gut is working correctly and the inflammatory response is working correctly, the inflammtion is at a controlled level rather than putting a band-aid on this issue, and many others.  For those that have ready the issues i've had with my horse over the past year and the changes in him, this program is the only "supplement" i'll ever feed again. And I can't even really call it a supplement.  There is a topic on the forum at https://www.secondvet.com/index.php/forum/equine titled, "Office Hours; Grasping The Concept of Inflammation". This is a great read and really goes into detail about how inflammation in the gut can and does cause inflammatory issues elsewhere in the body, including joints. There is a better way to manage the pain and achieve a healthy inflammatory response in our performance horses and I can say without a doubt, Cur-Ost is it.  I cannot say thank you enough to Dr. Schell and his team for getting my horse back in the arena! Â
The Cur-Ost web site has a very good article on Omega 3/6 relationship that everyone should read. My point was aimed at the type of isolated joint inflammation that is generated by synovial fluid break down that may have less to do with hind gut heath and has been proven to be improved by nourishing the horses ability to maintain or support that function. Maintaining a balance of the horses ability to generate needed inflammation to deal with acute injury (one function of omega 6s) while also having the ability to limit excess chronic inflammation (supported by omega3) can be greatly effected by diet and the digestive system. Most of you who know what I do for a living know that I feel that hind gut efficiency and health is the absolute key to overall well being in horses, and the path to maximizing genetic potential. I don't sell, or even often use feed through flex products, but there has been a lot of discussion on this forum about them. There has also been much discussion about injected inflammation control, which needs to be another topic. Feed through joint products are not band-aids, and that is my point. For a fairly narrow type of joint problem, they can provide support that many horses can't provide on their own. It is where they are used as a cure all for a broad range of lameness that they fall predictably short and are accused of being useless. My only point was that well made ones can be effective if used for a very specific purpose.
Edited by winwillows 2015-08-18 3:52 PM
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 My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | winwillows - 2015-08-18 1:03 PM
At the risk of stirring up a hornets next here, I want to just make a couple of points about feed through joint health products. I get asked about these just about every day. The answer is usually this. The best ones can improve range of motion and comfort if the issue the horse is suffering from is directly related to inflammation resulting from a lack of the quality or quantity of synovial fluid in the target joint. These products provide very little help beyond this. Damaged structure like torn ligaments or muscle tissue, or fractured bones will generally not be helped with feed through supplements. This is not meant to condemn feed through joint supplements. Just because they do not fix everything does not mean that they have no useful purpose in both daily support and relief from chronic situations mentioned above. Dr Gary Kaufman of Scottsdale and I did a full clinical trial on a flex product that I formulated for Absorbine called Flex+ a number of years ago. This trial had over 40,000 measurements on 55 horses. There were clear repeatable clinical improvements shown on horses that had chronic lameness from the joint issues discussed above. So, they do not fix everything, nor do they fix nothing. In the proper application they can be very effective. It would be unfair to compare feed through to injectables. In general they serve different purposes, pose different risks, and offer different potential long term results.
Thank you for this, Win |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | I can say that they helped my old horse with ringbone immensely.... This was in my younger days before I knew about injections or other options. He was a rescue and had various issues. He was much better when on glucosamine, chondroitin, and MSM. (I know I spelled those wrong).
However, I am of the personal opinion that the injectable products are a better bang for your buck. JMHO
I do still feed MSM because it is cheap, and I do believe it helps... but for my horse's hock issues, he responds much better to IM Pentosan than he ever has to a feed through.
So in short, I agree with the OP. |
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 Future Lottery Winner
Posts: 2348
Location: True North Strong and Free | winwillows - 2015-08-18 11:28 AM MC1993 - 2015-08-18 1:17 PM Is there a product you recommend to work the best as a feed through for minor stuff and preventative? I don't know what you can get in Canada. Platinum makes a good product. I have heard good things about MVP. I have used one that is made in California by Sher Mar called Four Flex. It may seem strange, but my two requirements for these products is that they use human grade ingredients, and actually put in the bucket what they say that they do. You would be surprised how many off brand products do not really have what they claim in the product.
Edited by Technicolor Paints 2015-08-19 11:32 AM
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 999
Location: Sunny So Cal | I love JointFLEX and JointPLUS by THE. I could feel a difference in 3 days. My horse was moving better and with more fluidity. I think the problem with most supplements is the inability to reach the designated point it was intended for. I have tried so many different supplements that I didn't notice a difference that I have lost count. I credit the Nitric Oxide technology being a vasodialtor as a contributing factor for why this company is the only one that makes products that I have actually been able to feel a difference and see a difference.
I agree that you can't compare injectable joints and feedable one because they are formulated differently, but are an extremely strong power couple for horses and their joints. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 617
Location: London Ontario | Techni - what would you suggest for all around/minor stuff/preventative? Joint and gut is the major stuff, I am in Canada so would love to support local |
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Future Lottery Winner
Posts: 2348
Location: True North Strong and Free | It depends on if you are wanting to improve performance or just maintain. To maintain a barrel horse I would go with Full Stride. It is a full vitamin mineral with DMG (breaks down lactic acid and helps to keep from getting muscle sore) and a high joint support as well. Promotes a healthy gut and reduces muscle tension. If you are wanting to build muscle, and grab another gear then the Performance One with electrolytes is your best product. If you are wanting to maintain lightly ridden or breeding stock then either our Support One (for grass hay forage diet) or Alfalfa Support( For 50% or more alfalfa diet). Please feel free to ask more questions if you like :) They also have all natural bute replacement products and race day formulas. |
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 Money Eating Baggage Owner
Posts: 9586
Location: Phoenix | Very interesting thread, I'm enjoying it.
So would it be overkill to do an injectable joint supplement and also a feed thru? |
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | hammer_time - 2015-08-19 7:19 PM
Very interesting thread, I'm enjoying it.
So would it be overkill to do an injectable joint supplement and also a feed thru?
Depending upon your horses needs, it may be beneficial to do both if you are talking about injecting a specific joint for a specific issue. As I said, this is another topic or two entirely. Even with injections, for system wide support of synovial fluid quantity and quality a feed through may be worthwhile. |
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 Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | she did point out the supplements that help relieve inflammation can provide relief.. MSM is considered that.... thats like us taking inflammation meds.. it helps.. it has helped my old sr with breathing and arthritis.. so has BL pellets.. buteless.. she is not stiff nor as sore..shes 30 so Im not concerned about the side effects but so far she has none.. |
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