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 Saint Stacey
   
| My other thought reading this thread is that, while it's okay to like a certain style and try to emulate it, a really good trainer takes conformation into consideration and let's the horse develop in a way that's comfortable for them.
Now before someone jumps to the wrong conclusion, what I said has nothing to do with Katie and what she trains. She has found something that works very well for her and the type of horses she raises. That is what a great trainer does.
But if you have a goose rumped horse that wants to be a tail setter, why try to make them into a run around type of horse? A horse likes their job a lot more if it's easy on them. Frustration quickly sets in for both horse and rider if you try to force them into a style that doesn't work with the way they are built. Again, you can take the basic concept of a style, but you need to let the horse dictate to what degree you force them into that style and where you change it to make it easier on them. |
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Expert
Posts: 2685
| SKM - 2016-01-12 10:52 AM
My other thought reading this thread is that, while it's okay to like a certain style and try to emulate it, a really good trainer takes conformation into consideration and let's the horse develop in a way that's comfortable for them.
Now before someone jumps to the wrong conclusion, what I said has nothing to do with Katie and what she trains. She has found something that works very well for her and the type of horses she raises. That is what a great trainer does.
But if you have a goose rumped horse that wants to be a tail setter, why try to make them into a run around type of horse? A horse likes their job a lot more if it's easy on them. Frustration quickly sets in for both horse and rider if you try to force them into a style that doesn't work with the way they are built. Again, you can take the basic concept of a style, but you need to let the horse dictate to what degree you force them into that style and where you change it to make it easier on them.
thank you. Yes, I agree with both the way the horses go into the turn leaning, I like mine to stand up all the way around. I also agree with setting the basics and letting a horse conform the turn to how they feel comfortable. I like the way her turns are fluid and smooth. I guess I don't care how the horse feels comfortable turning as long and their butt stays under them and its efficient. I like the fact that on the horses I saw that got a little strong between barrels, they still shut down and pivoted at the roll over point. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 672
| RoaniePonie11 - 2016-01-12 10:15 AM
rodeowithjoker - 2016-01-12 9:58 AM
RoaniePonie11 - 2016-01-12 9:29 AM Ok so I watched quite a bit yesterday and I'm watching again today. It looks like she uses a lot of inside leg and tips their nose in but keeping their body straight and goes by the barrel to a certain point (usually to the hip) and then asks them to pickup their front end and roll over their hocks and straighten out before leaving the barrel. Somebody correct me if I am wrong. lol.
My gray turns kind of like hers do and that's how I tune him. The big key with Chance is to keep his hip from floating out away from the barrel at the rate point. If he gets his hip to the outside, he can't set his feet and come around smoothly.
Ok so I have a dumb question lol. Im still watching her videos and trying to take notes lol. I am a nerd and will remember it if I wrote it down : ) Anywho, where is your rate point? In all of these videos I have only seen her STOP a horse once and it looked like it was just because that horse was getting a little pushy going to the first and she stopped him way before the barrel so I don't think she wanted to associate the barrel with that kind of a stop. I can see she asks her horses to rate/ slow down about 7' from the barrel. Again, I have never seen her stop them but I see her ask some to slow their roll with her hands and seat. At a trot, she doesn't stop posting until the roll over point. About 7-10' from each barrel she will start to ask for the nose to be tipped and you see the horses shoulder move out and hip move in and sometimes a slow in speed (but not always ), but she continues to post until the roll over point. So where is the rate point? LOL
I really enjoyed watching her videos. Watch the horses stride, at her rate point you can see the horses shorten their stride and it's a little faster. |
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 Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | RoaniePonie11 - 2016-01-12 10:21 AM skye - 2016-01-12 10:16 AM rodeowithjoker - 2016-01-13 6:58 AM RoaniePonie11 - 2016-01-12 9:29 AM Ok so I watched quite a bit yesterday and I'm watching again today. It looks like she uses a lot of inside leg and tips their nose in but keeping their body straight and goes by the barrel to a certain point (usually to the hip) and then asks them to pickup their front end and roll over their hocks and straighten out before leaving the barrel. Somebody correct me if I am wrong. lol. My gray turns kind of like hers do and that's how I tune him. The big key with Chance is to keep his hip from floating out away from the barrel at the rate point. If he gets his hip to the outside, he can't set his feet and come around smoothly. So I have a question about this. What would you do to correct it other than go the "does he hurt" route? Just work on softness of the pattern and come back slow and work on him staying up under himself at a trot- ect?
Skye, I'm not trying to say my horse turns like Katie's, just pointing out that my horse's bad habit is to lean his shoulder in & let his hips drift outside the turn. It's something I work to correct in slow work on a regular basis. Every horse is going to have some little habit that you consistently tune on them for, and that's his.
RoaniePonie11, As far as where my rate point is, I want my leg past the barrel before Chance starts gathering up for the turn. He's got a ton of natural rate so for me it's all about driving him to his spot. If I can get his hip even with the barrel when he initiates the turn, we're in good shape. If not, we may have to get sloppy and or creative to leave the barrel up. |
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OMG!! That looks crazy fun! and fast! All these horses basically run the same, and great riders also!
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 Poor Cracker Girl
Posts: 12150
Location: Feeding mosquitos, FL | RoaniePonie11 - 2016-01-12 11:21 AM skye - 2016-01-12 10:16 AM rodeowithjoker - 2016-01-13 6:58 AM RoaniePonie11 - 2016-01-12 9:29 AM Ok so I watched quite a bit yesterday and I'm watching again today. It looks like she uses a lot of inside leg and tips their nose in but keeping their body straight and goes by the barrel to a certain point (usually to the hip) and then asks them to pickup their front end and roll over their hocks and straighten out before leaving the barrel. Somebody correct me if I am wrong. lol. My gray turns kind of like hers do and that's how I tune him. The big key with Chance is to keep his hip from floating out away from the barrel at the rate point. If he gets his hip to the outside, he can't set his feet and come around smoothly. So I have a question about this. What would you do to correct it other than go the "does he hurt" route? Just work on softness of the pattern and come back slow and work on him staying up under himself at a trot- ect?
You have to get control of the hip - if the hip is going out, the shoulder is likely going in and they're getting flat through the body and leaning. To work on this, I break down a gait, usually from a lope to a trot, at my rate point (which for me starts at where the "in and out" paths cross - Ed Wright style - this can move out or in as the horse needs) and make sure that gait transition is done with the shoulder up and the hip in. Keep the shoulder up with the inside rein if need be and the hip in with the outside foot pushed back just a bit. Try to do it as fluidly as possible but sometimes you have to go all the way to a stop to get one really moving the hip in. And they never ever ever get to turn in slow work until their body is in alignment.
If you don't have hip control like that, you can sometimes fake it with a bit of a reverse arc at the rate point to get them standing up again. |
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Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | TrackinBubba - 2016-01-12 1:28 PM RoaniePonie11 - 2016-01-12 11:21 AM skye - 2016-01-12 10:16 AM rodeowithjoker - 2016-01-13 6:58 AM RoaniePonie11 - 2016-01-12 9:29 AM Ok so I watched quite a bit yesterday and I'm watching again today. It looks like she uses a lot of inside leg and tips their nose in but keeping their body straight and goes by the barrel to a certain point (usually to the hip) and then asks them to pickup their front end and roll over their hocks and straighten out before leaving the barrel. Somebody correct me if I am wrong. lol. My gray turns kind of like hers do and that's how I tune him. The big key with Chance is to keep his hip from floating out away from the barrel at the rate point. If he gets his hip to the outside, he can't set his feet and come around smoothly. So I have a question about this. What would you do to correct it other than go the "does he hurt" route? Just work on softness of the pattern and come back slow and work on him staying up under himself at a trot- ect?
If you don't have hip control like that, you can sometimes fake it with a bit of a reverse arc at the rate point to get them standing up again.
Exactly. |
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Location: Central Coast Cali | https://youtu.be/UCFnWrISjiA?list=PL44KSRcAR7DHVLx7nMI8dBNE9QJbCZKeX
Hopefully this works. This is a 4 year old (5 in May) daughter of First down French. We have only had her 2 months and this is the 2nd run my daughter has ever made on her. I think he just breds that into his babies. It was pretty cool being there and seeing some of her sibling run. |
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Expert
Posts: 2122
Location: The Great Northwest | TrackinBubba - 2016-01-13 10:28 AM RoaniePonie11 - 2016-01-12 11:21 AM skye - 2016-01-12 10:16 AM rodeowithjoker - 2016-01-13 6:58 AM RoaniePonie11 - 2016-01-12 9:29 AM Ok so I watched quite a bit yesterday and I'm watching again today. It looks like she uses a lot of inside leg and tips their nose in but keeping their body straight and goes by the barrel to a certain point (usually to the hip) and then asks them to pickup their front end and roll over their hocks and straighten out before leaving the barrel. Somebody correct me if I am wrong. lol. My gray turns kind of like hers do and that's how I tune him. The big key with Chance is to keep his hip from floating out away from the barrel at the rate point. If he gets his hip to the outside, he can't set his feet and come around smoothly. So I have a question about this. What would you do to correct it other than go the "does he hurt" route? Just work on softness of the pattern and come back slow and work on him staying up under himself at a trot- ect?
If you don't have hip control like that, you can sometimes fake it with a bit of a reverse arc at the rate point to get them standing up again.
I would feel like the body is not in alignment if I had the hip tracking in. What spot do you allow to collect and turn? |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| The videos that were posted, I seen the horses shortening their stride, some immediately before the barrel, some 4-5 strides before the barrel.
These horses are shortening but have quickened the stride to keep the same speed going in the turn.
Ed Wright talks a lot about shortening and quickening the stride |
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Expert
Posts: 2122
Location: The Great Northwest | TrackinBubba - 2016-01-13 10:28 AM RoaniePonie11 - 2016-01-12 11:21 AM skye - 2016-01-12 10:16 AM rodeowithjoker - 2016-01-13 6:58 AM RoaniePonie11 - 2016-01-12 9:29 AM Ok so I watched quite a bit yesterday and I'm watching again today. It looks like she uses a lot of inside leg and tips their nose in but keeping their body straight and goes by the barrel to a certain point (usually to the hip) and then asks them to pickup their front end and roll over their hocks and straighten out before leaving the barrel. Somebody correct me if I am wrong. lol. My gray turns kind of like hers do and that's how I tune him. The big key with Chance is to keep his hip from floating out away from the barrel at the rate point. If he gets his hip to the outside, he can't set his feet and come around smoothly. So I have a question about this. What would you do to correct it other than go the "does he hurt" route? Just work on softness of the pattern and come back slow and work on him staying up under himself at a trot- ect?
If you don't have hip control like that, you can sometimes fake it with a bit of a reverse arc at the rate point to get them standing up again.
I would take the horse and work on collection. I want to feel the hind feet come up under/a gathering when I sit and take hold lightly. They need to know this to rate at the correct spot. When you are ready to go back to the barrel pattern, trot before lope to be sure it is becoming habit. Long trot to rate spot then sit and slow to a collected trot. Your horse should learn this where you don't have to adjust where he/she should be around the barrel before speeding up. |
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Poor Cracker Girl
Posts: 12150
Location: Feeding mosquitos, FL | skye - 2016-01-12 4:37 PM
TrackinBubba - 2016-01-13 10:28 AM RoaniePonie11 - 2016-01-12 11:21 AM skye - 2016-01-12 10:16 AM rodeowithjoker - 2016-01-13 6:58 AM RoaniePonie11 - 2016-01-12 9:29 AM Ok so I watched quite a bit yesterday and I'm watching again today. It looks like she uses a lot of inside leg and tips their nose in but keeping their body straight and goes by the barrel to a certain point (usually to the hip) and then asks them to pickup their front end and roll over their hocks and straighten out before leaving the barrel. Somebody correct me if I am wrong. lol. My gray turns kind of like hers do and that's how I tune him. The big key with Chance is to keep his hip from floating out away from the barrel at the rate point. If he gets his hip to the outside, he can't set his feet and come around smoothly. So I have a question about this. What would you do to correct it other than go the "does he hurt" route? Just work on softness of the pattern and come back slow and work on him staying up under himself at a trot- ect?
If you don't have hip control like that, you can sometimes fake it with a bit of a reverse arc at the rate point to get them standing up again.
Like everything, it depends on the horse. If it's a youngin that is new, I want the hip straight or slightly in to promote both collection and a little bit of pivot foot. If it's a finished horse that's dropping and leaning then I want it all the way in to reinforce the need to use the hip for collection and power.
I start the actual turn generally when my leg or the horses hip is next to the barrel then finish at points two and point three is straighten up and leave. |
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| What you are seeing is a "turn around" and not a rollback ... a rollback includes a stop and horse tracks back over his previous tracks ...
You teach this turn around as a basic move working cork screw circles, along with flying lead changes and side passing and switching to riding two handed between each barrel to square yourself and the horse up before the rate ....... which are the keys to keeping a horses feet up under them when turning a barrel.
What is a corkscrew circle ?? Teach a horse small circles at a walk, trot and then Work a horse on the correct lead into tighter and tighter smaller circles and then expand the circle back to normal .. keeping your focus on momentum in all three gaits .... when you get smooth as glass doing both directions then you can do the same slow work with a barrel in the session ... and begin to work on speed ... riding two handed with slack in the outside rein is a must do!!
Cervi is a master of doing this regardless what horse she is riding because they have had the basics put on them per the above ... she also has a hold them off the barrel cue by lifting her inside rein coming into the barrel and when she releases it ... that is the cue to make the turn ... and watch her hands swap to two handed riding just like all the girls in the videos you guys have been watching ...
Don't forget to pull and tug on your hat to make sure it stays on ...
https://youtu.be/FqGi3WfY74w
Why make an L shaped move going to first?? ...
barrel one has 1 1/4 turns in it if you run to the barrel or a spot towards the fence and rider and horse get lost and lose momentum in the turn as horse throws his rear end out of sync ...
When you setup 30-40 feet on the line between 1&2 and head for barrel 1 .. you just made that extra 1/4 turn and will turn barrel 1 as a natural 360 turn like 2 & 3 ..... and the likely hood of running past or too deep on barrel one is omitted ...
If your horse is a natural lead changer or you have taught it well ... you don't care what lead you are on when leaving any of the barrels and same goes with flying lead changes and being smooth at side passing using front and rear feet to cross over during training when a barrel is not involved ...
Your eyes and what you are paying attention to in these super slow mo videos is deceiving to your brain ... in everyone of these videos you will see horses switch leads left /right/ left without missing a beat from one barrel to the next .......... now pay attention to the rate spot ... horse may be in wrong lead to turn that barrel .... but will make a flying lead change during the rate and right before they use their side passing skills to reach into the barrel with that left front foot to close in on the barrel ... no you will not see them cross their legs in this side pass maneuver but it enables them to keep grabbing dirt and closing up the distance to the barrel during the turn ... https://youtu.be/n3iPLzkFkqQ
The sloppiest video of tail whipping around during the turn is caused by rear not being on the same lead as the front end and they lose some of the under the body feet action ... the clue here is when horse makes a grab with his rear feet and powers around the 2nd half of the turn .... he has got front and rear back in sync and on the same leads to come off the turn and do his fast gathering as rider switches to two hands to square themselves up for the next rate and turn on the up coming barrel ...
Watch this video closely ... I just picked one randomly off of OP's first list of videos ........
Watch the wrong lead between barrels and the switch to the correct during rate and start of turning the barrel .... https://youtu.be/4gyy0pJj7es
Having the bloodlines with the natural lead changing characteristic is one of the genes good breeders try to include in the overall picture of setting barrel horse conformations along with flying lead changes, side passing agility along with fast gathering and speed on the way home ... so don't nag on your horse if his genes do not have the basic characteristics of a well bred pedigree to set these characteristics for specialized barrel horse breeding stock ..
I think most of you have noticed that my breeding program does not depend on just one well bred stud to transfer the needed characteristics .... I believe in stacking successful barrelhorse bloodlines as possible into the overall pedigree in order to set the characteristics and conformation from multiple sources .... same indepth consistent breeding that cutters and reiners have used for years to produce the characteristics they need in their specialized sports ... with no holes left in the pedigree to affect their off spring ..
One major on barrelhorse breeding is simple ... speed is the easiest thing to breed out of a horse .. so you have to keep adding a big dose of speed to stop the clock in order to be competitive .... examples >> http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/chasing+fame2 ... and then http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/cougars+barbie+doll .... Keep in mind while a breeder is spending years to stack a pedigree it is moving a generation at a time across the pedigree ... it is like a deck of cards .. you are trying to play with a full deck including all 52 cards to your advantage ...
How do you train a horse to keep their feet up under them and create a turnaround vs the big no no of a barrel knocking rollback??
Never train a barrel horse to do a roll back .. to easy for them to sense a wrong cue during the turn and knock the barrel or if they are watching the fence and you trained rollbacks using a fence they will whip around into the barrel ... ok I got that said ...
This is the best training video I have ever seen and this repetition of movements is the key to Becky Amio's colt starting and tune up training on barrel horses .. you work on each maneuver as a separate item and then start adding them to your training session while you stay alert, focused and keeping your forward momentum without nagging on your horse for any minor mistakes during the session ... you as the trainer should be ready to correct and move thru mistakes at tomorrows training session until everything flows with rhythm and focused momentum ....... Do not discount the end of the video where Amy goes thru her cool down and take their minds off of running while teaching other basics .... rattling chain on roll up door, roping a barrel, opening and closing a gate ... this puts the every day world back into their minds and gives them time to relax and learn something at the same time ...
Here you go ... remember no stopping to nag on the horse during your session ... lol
https://youtu.be/UwgdHnbmQFk
HAVE FUN ..
and
Thank You Merrill Ranch for this excellent video
Edited by BARRELHORSE USA 2016-01-12 9:02 PM
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | I think it would just depend on your horse, some horses just have their own turning style. |
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 Zeal Queen
Posts: 3826
Location: TEXAS | Crazy you posted this....I've watched her videos a lot in the past too!! I messaged her on facebook how she got such snappy turns....she never responded.  |
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