|
|
 Elite Veteran
Posts: 1035
 
Location: TN | Thank you all for your great input! Now I'm better prepared to shop for a foal. |
|
| |
|
Common Sense and then some
  
Location: So. California | KatieMac88 - 2016-01-24 3:55 PM If I was looking at a weanling instead of breeding I wonder if the 5 panel test could be done prior to purchase to see if the foal inherited the gene or not... just a thought. I definitely don't want one with PSSM, but I'm still interested in his babies. If I couldn't do the test though I probably wouldn't buy one... too risky. I find it strange that he would be bred and have so many babies (according to AQHA records 149) if he has PSSM.
Yes, you can run a 5 panel on any horse through AG, and if the dam/sire are not tested (with proof) then this should be part of a prepurchase exam. AG is very fast with their results.
http://animalgenetics.com/Equine/Genetic_Disease/Index.asp
As a side note, AQHA does not currently accept AG test results. So if plan on breeding a mare, you would need to test directly through the AQHA. |
|
| |
|
| KatieMac88 - 2016-01-24 5:55 PM
If I was looking at a weanling instead of breeding I wonder if the 5 panel test could be done prior to purchase to see if the foal inherited the gene or not... just a thought. I definitely don't want one with PSSM, but I'm still interested in his babies. If I couldn't do the test though I probably wouldn't buy one... too risky. I find it strange that he would be bred and have so many babies (according to AQHA records 149) if he has PSSM.
UC AT DAVIS has stated the 5 panel is only correct after a horse turns 2 years old ... very inconclusive on younger horses ...
|
|
| |
|
Common Sense and then some
Location: So. California | You are thinking of a muscle biopsy (PSSM2/RER) - they recommend only to biopsy age 2 or older.
Foals can be tested for PSSM1 via tail hairs. DNA is DNA... |
|
| |
|
Sock Snob
Posts: 3021
| hey the frenchmans bogie has thrown some nice horses up here. not boogie but bogie. i have thought about breeding since he doesnot advertise i wanted a more promoted stallion for resale also i want a fwf always have will get this time |
|
| |
|
  Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | BARRELHORSE USA - 2016-01-25 9:27 PM
KatieMac88 - 2016-01-24 5:55 PM
If I was looking at a weanling instead of breeding I wonder if the 5 panel test could be done prior to purchase to see if the foal inherited the gene or not... just a thought. I definitely don't want one with PSSM, but I'm still interested in his babies. If I couldn't do the test though I probably wouldn't buy one... too risky. I find it strange that he would be bred and have so many babies (according to AQHA records 149) if he has PSSM.
UC AT DAVIS has stated the 5 panel is only correct after a horse turns 2 years old ... very inconclusive on younger horses ...
If what you said is true, how can they parentage verify a foal?? SMH |
|
| |
|
 Veteran
Posts: 191
Location: CALIFORNIA | I have a 2 yr. old by Frenchmans Boogie that is wonderful! Extremely smart and athletic. Allison is great to work with and we have bought 5 horses from her so far. |
|
| |
|
 Take a Picture
Posts: 12838
| OregonBR - 2016-01-26 10:30 AM
BARRELHORSE USA - 2016-01-25 9:27 PM
KatieMac88 - 2016-01-24 5:55 PM
If I was looking at a weanling instead of breeding I wonder if the 5 panel test could be done prior to purchase to see if the foal inherited the gene or not... just a thought. I definitely don't want one with PSSM, but I'm still interested in his babies. If I couldn't do the test though I probably wouldn't buy one... too risky. I find it strange that he would be bred and have so many babies (according to AQHA records 149) if he has PSSM.
UC AT DAVIS has stated the 5 panel is only correct after a horse turns 2 years old ... very inconclusive on younger horses ...
If what you said is true, how can they parentage verify a foal?? SMH
Verifying parentage is completely different. |
|
| |
|
Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | streakysox - 2016-01-26 10:23 PM OregonBR - 2016-01-26 10:30 AM BARRELHORSE USA - 2016-01-25 9:27 PM KatieMac88 - 2016-01-24 5:55 PM If I was looking at a weanling instead of breeding I wonder if the 5 panel test could be done prior to purchase to see if the foal inherited the gene or not... just a thought. I definitely don't want one with PSSM, but I'm still interested in his babies. If I couldn't do the test though I probably wouldn't buy one... too risky. I find it strange that he would be bred and have so many babies (according to AQHA records 149) if he has PSSM. UC AT DAVIS has stated the 5 panel is only correct after a horse turns 2 years old ... very inconclusive on younger horses ... If what you said is true, how can they parentage verify a foal?? SMH Verifying parentage is completely different.
I can see how a muscle biopsy would need to be done after a certain age as that is likely a test that looks at muscle cell morphology (appearance) which can change with age/maturity. Diagnosis of young foals is difficult.
See below, this is about muscle biopsy testing for PSSM. Source: http://www.cvm.umn.edu/umec/lab/PSSM/home.html
The sample is taken from the semimembranosus muscle, which is part of the rear limb hamstring muscles. Sections of muscle are evaluated with a number of special stains. The periodic acid Schiff's (PAS) stain is used to look at the amount of sugar stored as glycogen in the muscle. With PSSM, the intensity of this stain is very dark indicating a large amount of glycogen is present in the horse's muscle. Measurements of glycogen are usually 1.5 to 4 X higher than normal horses. A large amount of glycogen, however, is not uncommon in trained horses, and not a basis for diagnosing PSSM. In addition to storing excessive normal glycogen, horses with PSSM have deep purple inclusions of an abnormal complex sugar stored in fibers. This is the classic diagnostic feature of PSSM muscle.
Biopsies are often graded as mild, moderate or severe based on the amount of abnormal polysaccharide. The abnormal polysaccharide always remains within the muscle tissues and does not decrease in amount over time.
 
A normal biopsy (left) and a biopsy from a horse with PSSM (right) stained with PAS. Note the lack of a uniform texture in the PSSM biopsy. The darker areas in the PSSM biopsy indicate the accumulation of excess glycogen and abnormal polysaccharide.
We have observed the accumulation of abnormal polysaccharide in the muscle of PSSM horses from a few months of age; however, establishing a diagnosis of PSSM in horses less than a year of age can be difficult because they not have developed abnormal polysaccharide yet. To be certain, a biopsy from a foal may have to be repeated at a later age.
Horses with unusually large accumulation of glycogen in muscle cells with a granular appearance are diagnosed with mild PSSM. In this case, the amount of abnormal polysaccharide is considered low, which may be associated with the horse being less than two years of age. In horses older than two, we advise veterinarians to ensure no other lameness issues may be contributing to signs of muscle pain.
Moderate to severe PSSM reflects the degree of accumulation of amylase resistant abnormal polysaccharide. The amount to abnormal polysaccharide does not always match the severity of clinical signs or prognosis.
Edited by barrelracr131 2016-01-27 8:36 AM
|
|
| |
|
Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | BTW, I would not breed to a horse that is PSSM + nor would I buy a colt that tested positive. |
|
| |
|
Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | streakysox - 2016-01-26 8:23 PM
OregonBR - 2016-01-26 10:30 AM
BARRELHORSE USA - 2016-01-25 9:27 PM
KatieMac88 - 2016-01-24 5:55 PM
If I was looking at a weanling instead of breeding I wonder if the 5 panel test could be done prior to purchase to see if the foal inherited the gene or not... just a thought. I definitely don't want one with PSSM, but I'm still interested in his babies. If I couldn't do the test though I probably wouldn't buy one... too risky. I find it strange that he would be bred and have so many babies (according to AQHA records 149) if he has PSSM.
UC AT DAVIS has stated the 5 panel is only correct after a horse turns 2 years old ... very inconclusive on younger horses ...
If what you said is true, how can they parentage verify a foal?? SMH
Verifying parentage is completely different.
DNA is DNA. It doesn't change. |
|
| |
|
 Elite Veteran
Posts: 824
Location: Duvall, WA | OregonBR - 2016-01-23 2:37 PM
Call AQHA. I believe Frenchemans Boogie (two o's) is PSSM1 N/P1. Confirm with them and do your research about this disorder. Make sure that's what you want to get because it's a 50% shot that the foal will get it.
I understand genetics, have bred Labradors for 30 years, but I'm having a hard time understanding this. If the gene is recessive, the horse should be a carrier but not affected. Unless both parents are carriers, then a baby can be affected. If it is dominant, that would mean the horse was affected, right? Carriers have a 50/50 chance of producing affecteds? Even with one clear parent? That doesn't make sense to me, in dogs a carrier would have a 50/50 chance of just producing another carrier. A dominant bred to clear would produce all carriers but no affecteds. Help! Thanks. |
|
| |
|
Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | NipntuckLR - 2016-01-27 11:53 AM OregonBR - 2016-01-23 2:37 PM Call AQHA. I believe Frenchemans Boogie (two o's) is PSSM1 N/P1. Confirm with them and do your research about this disorder. Make sure that's what you want to get because it's a 50% shot that the foal will get it. I understand genetics, have bred Labradors for 30 years, but I'm having a hard time understanding this. If the gene is recessive, the horse should be a carrier but not affected. Unless both parents are carriers, then a baby can be affected. If it is dominant, that would mean the horse was affected, right? Carriers have a 50/50 chance of producing affecteds? Even with one clear parent? That doesn't make sense to me, in dogs a carrier would have a 50/50 chance of just producing another carrier. A dominant bred to clear would produce all carriers but no affecteds. Help! Thanks.
PSSM1 is dominant and genetic
pssm 2 is not linked to a specific gene, but it is thought to be heritable as it tends to "run in families".
Pssm is managable in some animals and unmanageable in others. Regardless, it is a painful disease. |
|
| |
|
Common Sense and then some
Location: So. California | PSSM1, HYPP and MH are dominant. Meaning only one copy of the gene is necessary for the horse to afflicted.
Gbed and Herda are recessive - both parents must pass on the gene for the horse to be afflicted. If only one parent passes on the gene, the horse is considered a carrier and not afflicted.
PSSM2 and RER are "thought" to be dominant. There is a genetics lab in Colorado that believes they have isolated the gene(s) responisible. They are in the process of filing the testing patent and necessary information in the scientific journals. It will be awhile before the test is widely available, but they are very, very close to releasing their findings. |
|
| |
|
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1035
Location: TN | I am so thankful for everyone's helpful insight on PSSM! I have no experience with it, and from what I am learning it is definitely not something that I want my horse to have.
The owner e-mailed me back and said 50% of the foals could be a carrier of the gene, but from all of your research and some of my own I'm learning that just carrying the PSSM1 gene will mean the horse will show symptoms. It's just not worth the risk to breed to something like that. I would only consider a foal if it had passed a 5 panel test. The owner did say they would allow a buyer to pay to 5 panel test a foal prior to purchasing if they wanted. As nice as Frenchmans Boogie and his babies are, I'm thinking there are other nice studs out there that tested N/N that I'd prefer to look into instead of risking it on him. |
|
| |
|
 Regular
Posts: 90
Location: Las Vegas | I own a 7 year old mare (Love Ta Boogie) by Frenchmans Boogie. Kelly (who owned him before he went to Texas) Bred my mare to him. She is an amazing horse, GREAT attitude and personality willing to work. I love everything about her. |
|
| |
|
Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | KatieMac88 - 2016-01-27 2:54 PM
I am so thankful for everyone's helpful insight on PSSM! I have no experience with it, and from what I am learning it is definitely not something that I want my horse to have.
The owner e-mailed me back and said 50% of the foals could be a carrier of the gene, but from all of your research and some of my own I'm learning that just carrying the PSSM1 gene will mean the horse will show symptoms. It's just not worth the risk to breed to something like that. I would only consider a foal if it had passed a 5 panel test. The owner did say they would allow a buyer to pay to 5 panel test a foal prior to purchasing if they wanted. As nice as Frenchmans Boogie and his babies are, I'm thinking there are other nice studs out there that tested N/N that I'd prefer to look into instead of risking it on him.
"Carrier" status is reserved for recessive traits when they have only one copy. One copy of a recessive means the animal is unaffected. Two copies of a recessive mean they are affected. Most recessive disorders are lethal in homozygous form.
PSSM1 is a dominant gene. So only one copy is necessary for the animal to be affected and produce an affected foal 50% of the time when bred to a N/N horse. IMO the stallion owner/foal seller should do the testing themselves and not pass the responsibility off to the buyer. Some buyers will not know about the disorder and be screwed over by the seller's lack of transparency. JMO
I've tested all my mares and my stallion. I'm foaling my 3rd crop of all N/N 5 panel tested foals this year. |
|
| |
|
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1035
Location: TN | OregonBR - 2016-02-09 11:05 AM KatieMac88 - 2016-01-27 2:54 PM I am so thankful for everyone's helpful insight on PSSM! I have no experience with it, and from what I am learning it is definitely not something that I want my horse to have. The owner e-mailed me back and said 50% of the foals could be a carrier of the gene, but from all of your research and some of my own I'm learning that just carrying the PSSM1 gene will mean the horse will show symptoms. It's just not worth the risk to breed to something like that. I would only consider a foal if it had passed a 5 panel test. The owner did say they would allow a buyer to pay to 5 panel test a foal prior to purchasing if they wanted. As nice as Frenchmans Boogie and his babies are, I'm thinking there are other nice studs out there that tested N/N that I'd prefer to look into instead of risking it on him. "Carrier" status is reserved for recessive traits when they have only one copy. One copy of a recessive means the animal is unaffected. Two copies of a recessive mean they are affected. Most recessive disorders are lethal in homozygous form. PSSM1 is a dominant gene. So only one copy is necessary for the animal to be affected and produce an affected foal 50% of the time when bred to a N/N horse. IMO the stallion owner/foal seller should do the testing themselves and not pass the responsibility off to the buyer. Some buyers will not know about the disorder and be screwed over by the seller's lack of transparency. JMO I've tested all my mares and my stallion. I'm foaling my 3rd crop of all N/N 5 panel tested foals this year.
I feel the same way. It seems irresponsible to even breed one that has a 50% chance of passing it on. |
|
| |
|
The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| KatieMac88 - 2016-02-09 4:50 PM
OregonBR - 2016-02-09 11:05 AM KatieMac88 - 2016-01-27 2:54 PM I am so thankful for everyone's helpful insight on PSSM! I have no experience with it, and from what I am learning it is definitely not something that I want my horse to have. The owner e-mailed me back and said 50% of the foals could be a carrier of the gene, but from all of your research and some of my own I'm learning that just carrying the PSSM1 gene will mean the horse will show symptoms. It's just not worth the risk to breed to something like that. I would only consider a foal if it had passed a 5 panel test. The owner did say they would allow a buyer to pay to 5 panel test a foal prior to purchasing if they wanted. As nice as Frenchmans Boogie and his babies are, I'm thinking there are other nice studs out there that tested N/N that I'd prefer to look into instead of risking it on him. "Carrier" status is reserved for recessive traits when they have only one copy. One copy of a recessive means the animal is unaffected. Two copies of a recessive mean they are affected. Most recessive disorders are lethal in homozygous form. PSSM1 is a dominant gene. So only one copy is necessary for the animal to be affected and produce an affected foal 50% of the time when bred to a N/N horse. IMO the stallion owner/foal seller should do the testing themselves and not pass the responsibility off to the buyer. Some buyers will not know about the disorder and be screwed over by the seller's lack of transparency. JMO I've tested all my mares and my stallion. I'm foaling my 3rd crop of all N/N 5 panel tested foals this year.
Then don't breed or buy from the stud.
Pssm isn't the end of the world, symptoms horses experience can be on a wide range of the spectrum. |
|
| |
Folks on-line