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 Elite Veteran
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Location: God's country...aka TEXAS | ^^^^this!!! Sounds like contracted heels to me. My husband is a farrier who sees this ALL the time. Horses do NOT need wedges unless they are severely navicular. Wedges just cause the coffin bone to be un level causing more issues. I would pull the shoes and let the heels grow and un contract. The feet need to be trimmed level. That's the most important thing. Even if there are slight changes to the coffin bone - this doesn't mean they are navicular. Correct shoeing and occasional injections should work just fine for a very long time. I speak from experience lol |
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Regular
Posts: 68
| sounds like contracted heels to me too. I would pull his shoes and let him grow out. |
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
 
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Without having read all the posts, just the OPs first few, here's MY .02. In layman's terms, get pictures of the profile of both front feet. When their feet are at a broken back angle (toes too long, heels to low) there will be pinching at the top of the joint between the coffin bone and P2. Sometimes farriers will apply a wedge pad then take more heel off. Thereby cancelling the benefit of the increase in angle. So even though you are aware of the horse's need for increased angles in their feet, the farrier may not be changing the angle at all. The end result is pain in the coffin joint. The fact that both your horses are experiencing the same "new" foot pain is what raised the red flag for me, since usually the farrier is the same for both horses. |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | I just saw the post above mine talking about contracted heels. That is a by-product of leaving toe long and heels low. When the foot is raised up with the weight of the horse distributed more evenly on the whole foot, the heels will spread in response. |
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 Born not Made
Posts: 2931
Location: North Dakota | MPoloncic - 2016-08-22 5:31 PM r_beau - 2016-08-22 3:12 PM 2H~QH - 2016-08-22 11:50 AM
I don't know that I'd be injecting the joint if the rads are clean......
But I am a big chicken LOL.
I've never injected a joint that's not showing change. Just don't see a reason to take the risk. I know lots of people do, that is just my opinion.
Honest question then: If some sort of corrective shoeing does NOT help the horse that has heel pain, and the rads are clean .... what would you do? (If not inject.) Pull the shoes and work with a farrier who specializes in barefoot trimming. Worked wonders on my gelding. There are so many variables, but generally the horse will not go sound immediately. It takes time for them to begin using their foot properly - with a heel first landing. Definitely not a quick fix, but in the long run can cure a horse with chronic heel pain.
Okay, let me rephrase my hypothetical question: If corrective shoeing OR barefoot trimming does not help the horse (and of course, has been done correctly in both hypothetical circumstances) and the horse still has heel pain and the rads are clean ... what would you do then? (It not injecting.) |
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 Sorry I don't have any advice
Posts: 1975
Location: Sunnyland Florida | JLBerry - 2016-08-23 7:53 AM ^^^^this!!! Sounds like contracted heels to me. My husband is a farrier who sees this ALL the time. Horses do NOT need wedges unless they are severely navicular. Wedges just cause the coffin bone to be un level causing more issues. I would pull the shoes and let the heels grow and un contract. The feet need to be trimmed level. That's the most important thing. Even if there are slight changes to the coffin bone - this doesn't mean they are navicular. Correct shoeing and occasional injections should work just fine for a very long time. I speak from experience lol
I totally agree with this. Degreed/wedged shoes are very bad, except in extreme cases.
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| r_beau - 2016-08-23 12:49 PM
MPoloncic - 2016-08-22 5:31 PM r_beau - 2016-08-22 3:12 PM 2H~QH - 2016-08-22 11:50 AM
I don't know that I'd be injecting the joint if the rads are clean......
But I am a big chicken LOL.
I've never injected a joint that's not showing change. Just don't see a reason to take the risk. I know lots of people do, that is just my opinion.
Honest question then: If some sort of corrective shoeing does NOT help the horse that has heel pain, and the rads are clean .... what would you do? (If not inject.) Pull the shoes and work with a farrier who specializes in barefoot trimming. Worked wonders on my gelding. There are so many variables, but generally the horse will not go sound immediately. It takes time for them to begin using their foot properly - with a heel first landing. Definitely not a quick fix, but in the long run can cure a horse with chronic heel pain.
What I would do is get to the root cause.
Contracted heels take a long time to resolve, atleast 18 months of trimming every 4 weeks. I still havent found a farrier that is perfect.
If it absolutely is not contracted heels, and the rads are clean, I would go to a fluroscope, if that didn't show anything a MRI or bone scan.
Never know the problem may not be in the foot, just manifesting there. |
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 Did I miss the party?
Posts: 3864
| Your vet is confident that P2/P3 bone alignment is correct via rads on both horses? Mis-alignment can/will cause joint inflammation. Contracted heels will also obviously cause heel pain.
A positive response to wedging may have taken pressure off of the the navicular bone or DDFT (which "could" mean something with either of those) but, with improper wedging (when rads don't dictate a change in bone alignment is needed) you also risk suspensory strain. A clear diagnosis is the best bet in deciding how to treat.
As far as injecting joints, I do my best to keep steroids out of high motion joints. Although, I will do it if necessary. I prefer IRAP to maintain those if possible as well as injectibles (Legend/Adequan, etc) as needed.
Good luck with your horses.
Edited by barrelracinbroke 2016-08-24 11:27 PM
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 Life Saver
Posts: 10477
Location: MT | I guess I'm wondering why he was in wedges to begin with? That is a fairly typical cycle with a horse who is put in wedges, it puts them up on their toes and they use the back of the foot less and less.
Pressure and release is what strengthens the caudal foot, and develops the digital cushions. A horse is not able to get that when they are in a wedge shoe.
Edited by ruggedchica 2016-08-25 2:16 PM
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Life Saver
Posts: 10477
Location: MT | r_beau - 2016-08-23 11:49 AM MPoloncic - 2016-08-22 5:31 PM r_beau - 2016-08-22 3:12 PM 2H~QH - 2016-08-22 11:50 AM
I don't know that I'd be injecting the joint if the rads are clean......
But I am a big chicken LOL.
I've never injected a joint that's not showing change. Just don't see a reason to take the risk. I know lots of people do, that is just my opinion.
Honest question then: If some sort of corrective shoeing does NOT help the horse that has heel pain, and the rads are clean .... what would you do? (If not inject.) Pull the shoes and work with a farrier who specializes in barefoot trimming. Worked wonders on my gelding. There are so many variables, but generally the horse will not go sound immediately. It takes time for them to begin using their foot properly - with a heel first landing. Definitely not a quick fix, but in the long run can cure a horse with chronic heel pain.
1st thing...see what the radiographs show that we are dealing with. Does the horse have changes to the P3? Proper alignment between P2 and P3? Distal descent? Or are they clean?
I would really look at his diet and living conditions (what is the horse standing in the majority of the time...and is it contributing?)
I would continue with the barefoot trimming, being extremely careful with balance. And making sure the horse is being trimmed at frequent intervals. A good barefoot trimmer would want to see those radiographs if they are available.
I would turnout and ride (once the horse is sound enough to tolerate it) the horse in boots with wool pads.....however, this takes a large commitment because those boots would need to be pulled and cleaned daily. I would put the horse on pea gravel (it's amazing how much relief a foot sore horse will actually get from this) for several hours each day while his feet are airing out from the boots.
Like I said....this sort of scenario is a huge commitment and changes will not happen overnight. But I have seen it work!
Very few horses actually have "bad" foot genetics. Most foot problems are driven by the diet, environment and poor trimming/shoeing.
Edited by ruggedchica 2016-08-25 2:31 PM
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Life Saver
Posts: 10477
Location: MT | Another thought.....chronic thrush can really make a horse sore in the caudal foot too. |
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 Straight Shooter
Posts: 5725
Location: SW North Dakota | Excellent! I've been offline for a few days... He definitley doesn't have contracted heels. He's a big horse and has big, round feet. I am attaching the lateral view of the x-ray, then I'm going to go back and read the responses thoroughly.
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Straight Shooter
Posts: 5725
Location: SW North Dakota |  |
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 Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
| I'm no kind of expert but it looks like he needs a wedge to straighten his alignment up and open the joint back up.
There's probably somebody way more educated than I about reading angle X-rays, but that's what I see.
Now for what degree wedge, that's down to somebody WAY smarter than me.
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 Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| I dealt with something similar and based on your Rads I would say he had something similar to mine. Again, not a vet. Without seeing your horse, it is hard to say but my gelding had very upright, steep, long pasterns. I knew it when I bought him and he is the love of my life so we deal with what we have. He strained a tendon a few years ago and we ended up putting him in a 2 degree wedge, natural balance show and really pulled him breakover back. We assumed he was stressing that tendon due to his conformational "flaw." I have dealt with some intermittent heel pain every spring for the past 2 years. Finally had him in and x-rayed him and they wants a horse at a 2 to 4 degree ideally. My guy with his 2 degree wedge shoe was at a 0... he blocked sound on that foot. No bony changes. However, my vet thought he was "jarring" his coffin joint. He suspected if we got him in the 2-4 degree range, he would resolve the issue. So we added him in a 2 degree pad and a 2 degree wedge. He is now sound. If it wouldn't have worked we would have injected the coffin joint. You could see by looking at the rads that the motion would likely not be smooth the way it as so it made sense to me.
knock on wood, he is sound with the new shoe setup and as much as I hate having him like that because it is weird... but hes comfortable. I also have him re-set every 4 to 5 weeks. I know a lot of people are not believers in wedges but his is conformational and unfortunately there isn't much we can do as it is more mechanical.
I don't know if that makes sense but wanted to share my experience. based on that one shot, yours looks a little steep to me. |
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Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
| stayceem - 2016-08-31 12:29 PM
I dealt with something similar and based on your Rads I would say he had something similar to mine. Again, not a vet. Without seeing your horse, it is hard to say but my gelding had very upright, steep, long pasterns. I knew it when I bought him and he is the love of my life so we deal with what we have. He strained a tendon a few years ago and we ended up putting him in a 2 degree wedge, natural balance show and really pulled him breakover back. We assumed he was stressing that tendon due to his conformational "flaw." I have dealt with some intermittent heel pain every spring for the past 2 years. Finally had him in and x-rayed him and they wants a horse at a 2 to 4 degree ideally. My guy with his 2 degree wedge shoe was at a 0... he blocked sound on that foot. No bony changes. However, my vet thought he was "jarring" his coffin joint. He suspected if we got him in the 2-4 degree range, he would resolve the issue. So we added him in a 2 degree pad and a 2 degree wedge. He is now sound. If it wouldn't have worked we would have injected the coffin joint. You could see by looking at the rads that the motion would likely not be smooth the way it as so it made sense to me.
knock on wood, he is sound with the new shoe setup and as much as I hate having him like that because it is weird... but hes comfortable. I also have him re-set every 4 to 5 weeks. I know a lot of people are not believers in wedges but his is conformational and unfortunately there isn't much we can do as it is more mechanical.
I don't know if that makes sense but wanted to share my experience. based on that one shot, yours looks a little steep to me.
This is exactly my mare. It's mechanical. Wedges are necessary. |
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