|
|
Veteran
Posts: 110
| i have a horse they can't seem to diagnose and are suggesting a bone scan. She shows mild lameness in three limbs (hocks/stifles/left front pastern) so I'm thinking injections to start but she just started bucking. They think maybe spinal discomfort but she shows nothing when examined. I've never had a bone scan and am trying to understand the value if it only highlights possible problem areas. I seems like it's just a tool to help you narrow down the issue and not really pinpoint it.
They indicated bucking isn't common for lameness but I'm not sure that accurate. Thanks! | |
| | |
 Texas Taco
Posts: 7499
  
Location: Bandera, TX | My mare had one a couple of years ago. We found out that her spine was not the problem (as I had expected but X-rays said otherwise) but that she had a suspensory injury that she was never lame on. Be prepared to do additional imaging in addition to the scan. It will be an expensive day. I'm glad I
did it!!! It provided answers. | |
| | |
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1008
| I did one a few years ago- just the back half when injections were not working/making my horse feel any better. We did find something after doing the scan and then additional x-rays and MRIs- sadly we have not fixed the problem. Can't remember what my bill was that day but it wasn't terrible- especially when you consider you are often times experimenting with different things just to see if they work and those can be pricey too. | |
| | |
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 520
| Have you had this horse tested for pssm? I have a type 2 horse thats first symptom was what we thought was stifle/hock lameness and was having an on/off lameness in front. He would also crow hop under saddle. Vet wanted to do a bone scan but we couldn't afford it. Ended up testing positive for pssm and all his lameness has gone away since putting him on the proper diet. | |
| | |
 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | Bone scans are designed to localize lameness to a region by identifying increased uptake of a radioactive substance.. It definitely does not pin point a specific anatomic structure but can give you a general idea. Areas of increased osteoblastic activity (so increased bone remodeling) take up the radioactive marker and will show as bright or dark spots depending on how they have the screen monitor settings. You compare the left and right side of the horse and look for asymmetries in the uptake. It's VERY useful in potential stress fractures in race horses that may be so minor they won't show up on radiographs, but will get picked up on bone scan. Identifying those injuries sooner reduces catastrophic break down injuries racing.
Bone scans should be saved for horses who "don't block" or who have had unresolved lameness and you've tried a lot of different things. So for instance, a horse may light up in his right front fetlock region. But it doesn't mean it's the fetlock, it could be any structure around from the fetlock to the foot. BUT, what it does tell you is to focus your diagnostics back on the distal limb of the right front. From then, you would do more tests like, repeat nerve blocks, repeat rads, repeat ultrasound, or go to MRI. Or if that was all you could spend on diagnostics, you could "Treat the treatable" and go on with a treatment plan.
That is the value of a bone scan, because if you already knew exactly which area was the problem, then you would go on to either further diagnostics (like MRI) or treatment. The other value is you get a view of the entire horse- so if they suspect multiple areas that are problems, as expensive as a bone scan is, it may end up being cheaper than radiographing every single area they think might be a problem. It's also useful for areas of the horse that you can't block out or where imaging becomes difficult- like the back and pelvis.
If you want to pinpoint a specific area, that's what MRI is for. But, MRI reads very small regions at a time- like 8 inches. So if you know its in the left front leg but you haven't been able to block it out, you can't do MRI until you do.
Edited by casualdust07 2017-02-10 6:51 PM
| |
| | |
Expert
Posts: 4766
Location: Bandera, TX | casualdust07 - 2017-02-10 6:48 PM Bone scans are designed to localize lameness to a region by identifying increased uptake of a radioactive substance.. It definitely does not pin point a specific anatomic structure but can give you a general idea. Areas of increased osteoblastic activity (so increased bone remodeling) take up the radioactive marker and will show as bright or dark spots depending on how they have the screen monitor settings. You compare the left and right side of the horse and look for asymmetries in the uptake. It's VERY useful in potential stress fractures in race horses that may be so minor they won't show up on radiographs, but will get picked up on bone scan. Identifying those injuries sooner reduces catastrophic break down injuries racing. Bone scans should be saved for horses who "don't block" or who have had unresolved lameness and you've tried a lot of different things. So for instance, a horse may light up in his right front fetlock region. But it doesn't mean it's the fetlock, it could be any structure around from the fetlock to the foot. BUT, what it does tell you is to focus your diagnostics back on the distal limb of the right front. From then, you would do more tests like, repeat nerve blocks, repeat rads, repeat ultrasound, or go to MRI. Or if that was all you could spend on diagnostics, you could "Treat the treatable" and go on with a treatment plan. That is the value of a bone scan, because if you already knew exactly which area was the problem, then you would go on to either further diagnostics (like MRI) or treatment. The other value is you get a view of the entire horse- so if they suspect multiple areas that are problems, as expensive as a bone scan is, it may end up being cheaper than radiographing every single area they think might be a problem. It's also useful for areas of the horse that you can't block out or where imaging becomes difficult- like the back and pelvis. If you want to pinpoint a specific area, that's what MRI is for. But, MRI reads very small regions at a time- like 8 inches. So if you know its in the left front leg but you haven't been able to block it out, you can't do MRI until you do.
Thanks Doc! Well said. | |
| | |
Go Get Em!
Posts: 13503
Location: OH. IO | How about epm? Our good friend was having similar issues and then the bucking started.horse had to go through two treatments and is doing well now
Edited by jake16 2017-02-10 7:04 PM
| |
| | |
 Elite Veteran
Posts: 615
Location: Wyoming | Buckles - 2017-02-10 6:35 PM
Have you had this horse tested for pssm? I have a type 2 horse thats first symptom was what we thought was stifle/hock lameness and was having an on/off lameness in front. He would also crow hop under saddle. Vet wanted to do a bone scan but we couldn't afford it. Ended up testing positive for pssm and all his lameness has gone away since putting him on the proper diet.
This!! I spent thousands trying to figure out what my horses mystery lameness was. She was sore in her stifles and left front. Injections did nothing for her and the vet never could figure out her left front. She has pssm and is doing much better on the proper diet. Good luck | |
| | |
 Did I miss the party?
Posts: 3864
| I love bone scans. Not only can it help pinpoint an area, it will show you other things potentially going on with your horse that may not have shown up as an issue yet. Rarely is there just "one thing" in a performance horse. They may have uptake in multiple areas that can be addressed to possibly help the horse from becoming lame.
And, I have a horse with PSSM type 2. He had a full body bone scan, it wasn't he PSSM2 that was causing his discomfort.
| |
| | |
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 542
| casualdust07 - 2017-02-10 6:48 PM Bone scans are designed to localize lameness to a region by identifying increased uptake of a radioactive substance.. It definitely does not pin point a specific anatomic structure but can give you a general idea. Areas of increased osteoblastic activity (so increased bone remodeling) take up the radioactive marker and will show as bright or dark spots depending on how they have the screen monitor settings. You compare the left and right side of the horse and look for asymmetries in the uptake. It's VERY useful in potential stress fractures in race horses that may be so minor they won't show up on radiographs, but will get picked up on bone scan. Identifying those injuries sooner reduces catastrophic break down injuries racing. Bone scans should be saved for horses who "don't block" or who have had unresolved lameness and you've tried a lot of different things. So for instance, a horse may light up in his right front fetlock region. But it doesn't mean it's the fetlock, it could be any structure around from the fetlock to the foot. BUT, what it does tell you is to focus your diagnostics back on the distal limb of the right front. From then, you would do more tests like, repeat nerve blocks, repeat rads, repeat ultrasound, or go to MRI. Or if that was all you could spend on diagnostics, you could "Treat the treatable" and go on with a treatment plan. That is the value of a bone scan, because if you already knew exactly which area was the problem, then you would go on to either further diagnostics (like MRI) or treatment. The other value is you get a view of the entire horse- so if they suspect multiple areas that are problems, as expensive as a bone scan is, it may end up being cheaper than radiographing every single area they think might be a problem. It's also useful for areas of the horse that you can't block out or where imaging becomes difficult- like the back and pelvis. If you want to pinpoint a specific area, that's what MRI is for. But, MRI reads very small regions at a time- like 8 inches. So if you know its in the left front leg but you haven't been able to block it out, you can't do MRI until you do.
Can you explain this? I've had vets suggest an MRI to determine what part of the leg was our problem because we couldnn't fiind it by just blocking. | |
| | |
You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | runfastturnsmooth - 2017-02-11 11:46 AM
casualdust07 - 2017-02-10 6:48 PM Bone scans are designed to localize lameness to a region by identifying increased uptake of a radioactive substance.. It definitely does not pin point a specific anatomic structure but can give you a general idea. Areas of increased osteoblastic activity (so increased bone remodeling) take up the radioactive marker and will show as bright or dark spots depending on how they have the screen monitor settings. You compare the left and right side of the horse and look for asymmetries in the uptake. It's VERY useful in potential stress fractures in race horses that may be so minor they won't show up on radiographs, but will get picked up on bone scan. Identifying those injuries sooner reduces catastrophic break down injuries racing. Bone scans should be saved for horses who "don't block" or who have had unresolved lameness and you've tried a lot of different things. So for instance, a horse may light up in his right front fetlock region. But it doesn't mean it's the fetlock, it could be any structure around from the fetlock to the foot. BUT, what it does tell you is to focus your diagnostics back on the distal limb of the right front. From then, you would do more tests like, repeat nerve blocks, repeat rads, repeat ultrasound, or go to MRI. Or if that was all you could spend on diagnostics, you could "Treat the treatable" and go on with a treatment plan. That is the value of a bone scan, because if you already knew exactly which area was the problem, then you would go on to either further diagnostics (like MRI) or treatment. The other value is you get a view of the entire horse- so if they suspect multiple areas that are problems, as expensive as a bone scan is, it may end up being cheaper than radiographing every single area they think might be a problem. It's also useful for areas of the horse that you can't block out or where imaging becomes difficult- like the back and pelvis. If you want to pinpoint a specific area, that's what MRI is for. But, MRI reads very small regions at a time- like 8 inches. So if you know its in the left front leg but you haven't been able to block it out, you can't do MRI until you do.
Can you explain this? I've had vets suggest an MRI to determine what part of the leg was our problem because we couldnn't fiind it by just blocking.
You have to know which area blocks out to use MRI accurately. The amount that you can image for one MRI is about 8" long. For example, you can only fit the foot-pastern for a foot series. And you can only really get the fetlock for a fetlock series. It takes several hours just to get the feet done, so if you were going to image more than one area of the horse, it would take so long you would have to stop and start another time due to time under general anesthesia. So if you just knew it was in "the left front leg" for example, but had no idea where it was, you would have to spend the cost of an MRI for each section of the leg and you would have to go under anesthesia each and every time. You would probably spend $6000-8000+ to MRI an entire leg from the foot to the carpus. And then, if you didn't know where it blocks out to begin with, if the lameness originates proximal to the carpus, you've wasted your money because you can't MRI anything higher than the hock or carpus of a horse. So stifle, elbow, shoulder, pelvis- none of that can be put through the magnet. | |
| | |
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 542
| casualdust07 - 2017-02-11 12:13 PM
runfastturnsmooth - 2017-02-11 11:46 AM
casualdust07 - 2017-02-10 6:48 PM Bone scans are designed to localize lameness to a region by identifying increased uptake of a radioactive substance.. It definitely does not pin point a specific anatomic structure but can give you a general idea. Areas of increased osteoblastic activity (so increased bone remodeling) take up the radioactive marker and will show as bright or dark spots depending on how they have the screen monitor settings. You compare the left and right side of the horse and look for asymmetries in the uptake. It's VERY useful in potential stress fractures in race horses that may be so minor they won't show up on radiographs, but will get picked up on bone scan. Identifying those injuries sooner reduces catastrophic break down injuries racing. Bone scans should be saved for horses who "don't block" or who have had unresolved lameness and you've tried a lot of different things. So for instance, a horse may light up in his right front fetlock region. But it doesn't mean it's the fetlock, it could be any structure around from the fetlock to the foot. BUT, what it does tell you is to focus your diagnostics back on the distal limb of the right front. From then, you would do more tests like, repeat nerve blocks, repeat rads, repeat ultrasound, or go to MRI. Or if that was all you could spend on diagnostics, you could "Treat the treatable" and go on with a treatment plan. That is the value of a bone scan, because if you already knew exactly which area was the problem, then you would go on to either further diagnostics (like MRI) or treatment. The other value is you get a view of the entire horse- so if they suspect multiple areas that are problems, as expensive as a bone scan is, it may end up being cheaper than radiographing every single area they think might be a problem. It's also useful for areas of the horse that you can't block out or where imaging becomes difficult- like the back and pelvis. If you want to pinpoint a specific area, that's what MRI is for. But, MRI reads very small regions at a time- like 8 inches. So if you know its in the left front leg but you haven't been able to block it out, you can't do MRI until you do.
Can you explain this? I've had vets suggest an MRI to determine what part of the leg was our problem because we couldnn't fiind it by just blocking.
You have to know which area blocks out to use MRI accurately. The amount that you can image for one MRI is about 8" long. For example, you can only fit the foot-pastern for a foot series. And you can only really get the fetlock for a fetlock series. It takes several hours just to get the feet done, so if you were going to image more than one area of the horse, it would take so long you would have to stop and start another time due to time under general anesthesia. So if you just knew it was in "the left front leg" for example, but had no idea where it was, you would have to spend the cost of an MRI for each section of the leg and you would have to go under anesthesia each and every time. You would probably spend $6000-8000+ to MRI an entire leg from the foot to the carpus. And then, if you didn't know where it blocks out to begin with, if the lameness originates proximal to the carpus, you've wasted your money because you can't MRI anything higher than the hock or carpus of a horse. So stifle, elbow, shoulder, pelvis- none of that can be put through the magnet.
HOLY CRAP!! MRI's in OK are expensive!
I only paid $2500 for lay down at UT. Found out the gelding had tears (I don't remember exact percentages) in both hind suspensories.
One more question I've heard the standing are not as "clear" as the lay down bc we were goin to haul this horse to GA for a standing since it was going to be cheaper to do one leg. Which I'm glad we didn't because it ended up beign more than one limb but just curious?
ETA: I read that wrong! I see what you are saying now. We couldn't block it but did have a general idea and MRI'd at our hunches. Thankfully we choose the two correct limbs to find it the correct places LOL
Edited by runfastturnsmooth 2017-02-11 12:54 PM
| |
| | |
You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | runfastturnsmooth - 2017-02-11 12:37 PM
casualdust07 - 2017-02-11 12:13 PM
runfastturnsmooth - 2017-02-11 11:46 AM
casualdust07 - 2017-02-10 6:48 PM Bone scans are designed to localize lameness to a region by identifying increased uptake of a radioactive substance.. It definitely does not pin point a specific anatomic structure but can give you a general idea. Areas of increased osteoblastic activity (so increased bone remodeling) take up the radioactive marker and will show as bright or dark spots depending on how they have the screen monitor settings. You compare the left and right side of the horse and look for asymmetries in the uptake. It's VERY useful in potential stress fractures in race horses that may be so minor they won't show up on radiographs, but will get picked up on bone scan. Identifying those injuries sooner reduces catastrophic break down injuries racing. Bone scans should be saved for horses who "don't block" or who have had unresolved lameness and you've tried a lot of different things. So for instance, a horse may light up in his right front fetlock region. But it doesn't mean it's the fetlock, it could be any structure around from the fetlock to the foot. BUT, what it does tell you is to focus your diagnostics back on the distal limb of the right front. From then, you would do more tests like, repeat nerve blocks, repeat rads, repeat ultrasound, or go to MRI. Or if that was all you could spend on diagnostics, you could "Treat the treatable" and go on with a treatment plan. That is the value of a bone scan, because if you already knew exactly which area was the problem, then you would go on to either further diagnostics (like MRI) or treatment. The other value is you get a view of the entire horse- so if they suspect multiple areas that are problems, as expensive as a bone scan is, it may end up being cheaper than radiographing every single area they think might be a problem. It's also useful for areas of the horse that you can't block out or where imaging becomes difficult- like the back and pelvis. If you want to pinpoint a specific area, that's what MRI is for. But, MRI reads very small regions at a time- like 8 inches. So if you know its in the left front leg but you haven't been able to block it out, you can't do MRI until you do.
Can you explain this? I've had vets suggest an MRI to determine what part of the leg was our problem because we couldnn't fiind it by just blocking.
You have to know which area blocks out to use MRI accurately. The amount that you can image for one MRI is about 8" long. For example, you can only fit the foot-pastern for a foot series. And you can only really get the fetlock for a fetlock series. It takes several hours just to get the feet done, so if you were going to image more than one area of the horse, it would take so long you would have to stop and start another time due to time under general anesthesia. So if you just knew it was in "the left front leg" for example, but had no idea where it was, you would have to spend the cost of an MRI for each section of the leg and you would have to go under anesthesia each and every time. You would probably spend $6000-8000+ to MRI an entire leg from the foot to the carpus. And then, if you didn't know where it blocks out to begin with, if the lameness originates proximal to the carpus, you've wasted your money because you can't MRI anything higher than the hock or carpus of a horse. So stifle, elbow, shoulder, pelvis- none of that can be put through the magnet.
HOLY CRAP!! MRI's in OK are expensive!
I only paid $2500 for lay down at UT. Found out the gelding had tears (I don't remember exact percentages ) in both hind suspensories.
One more question I've heard the standing are not as "clear" as the lay down bc we were goin to haul this horse to GA for a standing since it was going to be cheaper to do one leg. Which I'm glad we didn't because it ended up beign more than one limb but just curious?
ETA: I read that wrong! I see what you are saying now. We couldn't block it but did have a general idea and MRI'd at our hunches. Thankfully we choose the two correct limbs to find it the correct places LOL
yeah an MRI is about 2000 give or take but you are only imaging a certain spot- like feet, or fetlock, or hock, and you usually get the opposite leg for that same price. but if you don't know where to image, you're going to spend 2000ish for each area of interest, and run the risk of complications with anesthesia over and over.
The standing MRIs are not as strong as a magnet so by default your picture won't be as good. Also, with standing MRI, since they are heavily sedated the horse will naturally move more than a horse who is completely under general anesthesia with the leg padded and suspended. I suggest if you are going to spend the money on an MRI you may as well spend the money and get the best picture you can afford. | |
| | |
Did I miss the party?
Posts: 3864
| casualdust07 - 2017-02-11 10:13 AM runfastturnsmooth - 2017-02-11 11:46 AM casualdust07 - 2017-02-10 6:48 PM Bone scans are designed to localize lameness to a region by identifying increased uptake of a radioactive substance.. It definitely does not pin point a specific anatomic structure but can give you a general idea. Areas of increased osteoblastic activity (so increased bone remodeling) take up the radioactive marker and will show as bright or dark spots depending on how they have the screen monitor settings. You compare the left and right side of the horse and look for asymmetries in the uptake. It's VERY useful in potential stress fractures in race horses that may be so minor they won't show up on radiographs, but will get picked up on bone scan. Identifying those injuries sooner reduces catastrophic break down injuries racing. Bone scans should be saved for horses who "don't block" or who have had unresolved lameness and you've tried a lot of different things. So for instance, a horse may light up in his right front fetlock region. But it doesn't mean it's the fetlock, it could be any structure around from the fetlock to the foot. BUT, what it does tell you is to focus your diagnostics back on the distal limb of the right front. From then, you would do more tests like, repeat nerve blocks, repeat rads, repeat ultrasound, or go to MRI. Or if that was all you could spend on diagnostics, you could "Treat the treatable" and go on with a treatment plan. That is the value of a bone scan, because if you already knew exactly which area was the problem, then you would go on to either further diagnostics (like MRI) or treatment. The other value is you get a view of the entire horse- so if they suspect multiple areas that are problems, as expensive as a bone scan is, it may end up being cheaper than radiographing every single area they think might be a problem. It's also useful for areas of the horse that you can't block out or where imaging becomes difficult- like the back and pelvis. If you want to pinpoint a specific area, that's what MRI is for. But, MRI reads very small regions at a time- like 8 inches. So if you know its in the left front leg but you haven't been able to block it out, you can't do MRI until you do. Can you explain this? I've had vets suggest an MRI to determine what part of the leg was our problem because we couldnn't fiind it by just blocking. You have to know which area blocks out to use MRI accurately. The amount that you can image for one MRI is about 8" long. For example, you can only fit the foot-pastern for a foot series. And you can only really get the fetlock for a fetlock series. It takes several hours just to get the feet done, so if you were going to image more than one area of the horse, it would take so long you would have to stop and start another time due to time under general anesthesia. So if you just knew it was in "the left front leg" for example, but had no idea where it was, you would have to spend the cost of an MRI for each section of the leg and you would have to go under anesthesia each and every time. You would probably spend $6000-8000+ to MRI an entire leg from the foot to the carpus. And then, if you didn't know where it blocks out to begin with, if the lameness originates proximal to the carpus, you've wasted your money because you can't MRI anything higher than the hock or carpus of a horse. So stifle, elbow, shoulder, pelvis- none of that can be put through the magnet.
Edited by barrelracinbroke 2017-02-15 11:10 PM
| |
| |
| |
Folks on-line