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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
  
| So Lost - 2017-07-09 8:01 AM
 I'd love to know why the trainer said my horse was great at beginning and they loved it, to bar none hands down the worst horse they have ever stepped foot on ? This was according to the trainers own posts not mine?
As far as slander? Well I'm not worried about that either, the trainer would have to have the money to sue and I have all of our conversations about the horse, none of my statements are false or lies or half-truths.
And as for a professional not wanting to tell the owner their horse is a pig, or that they cannot get along with the horse or train it. Well that’s when it’s time to put on your big girl panties and do the job you are paid for, and you can "save face" and "Sugar Coat" things, and still get your point across. There are ways to tactfully tell the owner that their horse is a pig or not going to make it in an event or you don't want to train it. Its pretty simple really, I can think up half a dozen ways right off the top of my head.
This trainer could have told me straight up that they thought my horse was a pig or what ever, even on day 2 and I would have happily had it shipped back home, without a second though because I trusted this trainer’s opinion, advice, & intentions. I never would have said a peep about it and would have totally gave the trainer the benefit of the doubt.
However milking me for 6 months and then sending back a horse that I will have to start from the ground up to get back on track and zero explanation for it? Is that really ok to most people here?
I guess I'm kinda shocked that there is no bar or standards trainers are held to especially by this community. I understand you can’t guarantee to make a horse a winner but as a professional you can generally judge what you can do with a horse in a given amount of time.
I in no way shape or form was expecting a finished horse in six months but I did expect a basic solid foundation, especially since the horse was being ridden before I sent it!
I’ve gotten many pm’s from people who have been in my shoes and agree what went down was wrong but didn’t want to face the ridicule from posting.
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Your first comment about the trainer loving the horse, then at the end saying it is the worst she has ever faced and you not understanding how this could be shows inexperience on your part.
I have owned two horses that fit that description to a T. The first one, she was a quick learner doing well till the 3 week mark then couldn't lope a circle, no soundness issues. It took me 4 months to lope nice circles on a loose rein. Some days only rode her 5 min.
The other the trainer had her, first two weeks was great, then she sulled up and he kicked her out for a month. He said one of them was going to die. The month break was what she needed, she turned out to be an average barrel horse and a wicked rope horse.
So yes I can definitely see how a trainer can love on one then it can be the spawn of satan, I owned two.
Was the trainer right on keeping the horse, Idk it all depends on the trainers interpretation of the conversations you two had.
Did the trainer try to tell you things were going bad, from what you said she did acknowledge things did turn south, again it all depends on the interpretation of the conversation.
As for the soundness check, I believe she told her something wasn't right and you had her worked on. I have been in that same situation, they sent me a video, I sent it to my vet, and my vet told me to pull him. I switched out horses. I don't believe trainers should be in charge of hauling to and from vets, it take valuable time from other clients horses, if you were paying extra then that is something you discuss with the trainer. I am one that has a good relationship with my vet, so I send all assessments to him to review.
Do you have the right to be mad, only you can answer that.
I would put that negative energy into constructive energy and figure out how you would handle things the next time, closer trainer, finding the balance between overbearing and hands off trainer.
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| So Lost - 2017-07-09 11:45 AM
I did not see it in any other posts but have you taken your horse to the vet and him looked over? Before starting over you should get that done first. Any number of things could have put a stop to this horses progression. And after 6 months of pushing him he will be reluctant even after any pain issues have been addressed.
The horse isn't obviously lame or showing classic signs of ulcers. I will be taking my horse to a clinic with a lameness locator and while I'm there I'll have them check for ulcers as well.
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A horse doesn't need to be obviously lame to be sore, how they are tracking, how they stop, do they swish their tails, all these can be signs of soreness.
I had a horse tore the joint capsule out of the joint and she wasn't lame.
I had one who had a splint that needed to be pinned that wasn't lame.
I had one who had a crushed collateral ligament, crushed splint that the trainer (one I no longer use due to this) that I could tell he was sore, trainer didn't, and this trainer was well respected in his speciality, good referenced by my vet, and a good friend. I wasn't impressed he never picked up on it, but I am more frustrated with myself that I didn't listen to my gut and pick him up immediately. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1446
Location: California | NJJ - 2017-07-08 3:50 PM *almost there* - 2017-07-08 4:39 PM NJJ - 2017-07-08 7:25 AM *almost there* - 2017-07-08 12:32 AM cheryl makofka - 2017-07-04 8:30 AM Here is my two cents. No you are not entitled to a refund. The trainer cannot guarantee success, they put their time in, and need to be paid for the time. Even the 6th month, you didn't pick the horse up at the beginning, the horse stayed there, and she had to feed it and care for it. As for the trainer there are always 3 sides to the story, yours, theirs, and the truth, it may have been how you worded things that made them continue working on the horse instead of calling you and telling you to pick up the horse. Trainers try and be polite. It takes an exceptional trainer to call and tell someone to come get their horse as it isn't working. I have friends that are trainers and their stories about how owners reject their suggestion of selling the horse, or reject the suggestion of stopping the training. I have seen horses sull up at 30, 60, and even 90 days. It sounds like yours has sulled up. YES YES YES YES YES, THANK YOU!!
I find it interesting that this trainer did fabulous with one horse and then all of a sudden what shotty with another horse? What changed? I've been sending horses off for years to different trainers and have done training myself. No two horses will every break out and train the same. People's expectations are generally greater than their horses God given ability. I could see where a trainer feels the pressure to perform and keep customers happy so no, they don't want to say "by the way your horse isn't good" and yes, they keep on trying to train to meet the owners expectations.
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Expert
Posts: 1446
Location: California | So Lost - 2017-07-09 6:01 AM I'd love to know why the trainer said my horse was great at beginning and they loved it, to bar none hands down the worst horse they have ever stepped foot on ? This was according to the trainers own posts not mine?
As far as slander? Well I'm not worried about that either, the trainer would have to have the money to sue and I have all of our conversations about the horse, none of my statements are false or lies or half-truths.
And as for a professional not wanting to tell the owner their horse is a pig, or that they cannot get along with the horse or train it. Well that’s when it’s time to put on your big girl panties and do the job you are paid for, and you can "save face" and "Sugar Coat" things, and still get your point across. There are ways to tactfully tell the owner that their horse is a pig or not going to make it in an event or you don't want to train it. Its pretty simple really, I can think up half a dozen ways right off the top of my head.
This trainer could have told me straight up that they thought my horse was a pig or what ever, even on day 2 and I would have happily had it shipped back home, without a second though because I trusted this trainer’s opinion, advice, & intentions. I never would have said a peep about it and would have totally gave the trainer the benefit of the doubt.
However milking me for 6 months and then sending back a horse that I will have to start from the ground up to get back on track and zero explanation for it? Is that really ok to most people here?
I guess I'm kinda shocked that there is no bar or standards trainers are held to especially by this community. I understand you can’t guarantee to make a horse a winner but as a professional you can generally judge what you can do with a horse in a given amount of time.
I in no way shape or form was expecting a finished horse in six months but I did expect a basic solid foundation, especially since the horse was being ridden before I sent it!
I’ve gotten many pm’s from people who have been in my shoes and agree what went down was wrong but didn’t want to face the ridicule from posting.
I do not mean to come off as you are completely in the wrong, as I was not there for any of this in real time-- I can understand where you feel like you lost a lof of money, but I just simply mean until someone has a lot of experience training for the public, their perspectives are often very different. My best advice is to find a really good Buck Brannaman apprentice and take lessons and start over with. That horsemanship has saved a lot of horses. | |
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Defense Attorney for The Horse
Location: Claremore, OK | I'm sorry it didn't work out for you.
Unfortunately, it seems like there was a communication breakdown on both party's part.
I think it's as important for a trainer to interview a prospective customer as it is for the customer to interview the trainer. It's really hard to know what some clients expect without asking questions. Sometimes the customer going by just good reviews isn't enough.
I want to know what the client expects, what her riding style is, etc. If I don't think I can do a good job for you, I'm not going to ride your horse.
During the training process I also want to frequently assess the horse's progress and ask myself "would the owner be happy with the progress ?"
If for some reason a horse isn't progressing in a normal fashion I want the client know. The horse might need vet work, time off or a new career.
I had the same thing happen to me with a well known colt starter. I sent a really nice filly, got good reports and 1 video during a 3 mo. Period. When I picked up the filly she rode like she looked in the 45 day video. No skills, no buttons, not much but forward motion.
The only person I was mad at was MYSELF. I just "assumed" things would get done.
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 Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
 
| So Lost - 2017-07-03 3:18 PM
Yes, I shouldn't have trusted the trainer, even though previously I had a great experience with them, and when the updates were slow I should have been a thorn in this trainers side. I should have said get me videos or I'm sending a hauler. Instead I was understanding about how many horses this trainer had and the long hours they were working and every other excuse I was given for why updates were slow, or vauge and they couldn't get video.
I should have traveled up to see and ride my horse, unfortunately because of my work right now I can't be gone for much more than 24 hours or I would have.
As far as riding different yes everyone rides a bit different but horsemanship is horsemanship. I grew up buying, retraining and selling sale barn horses, catch riding at sales, I usually train all of my own horses but the property I have now isn't set up for it. I have ridden everything from cutters, reiners, western pleasure horses to dressage and jumpers. So I can pretty much guaranteed this isn't a case of the horse has my number.
I asked the trainer about the issues I was having as soon as I rode the horse and they had no explanation, at all. Didn't even say it was odd for the horse or suggest maybe I was doing something wrong. They just said they feel bad the horse is like that. I can't even wrap my head around how a person can take a horse who was going pretty good for me before I sent it, into this dead sided, hard mouthed, animal
As far as my post on social media, well it pretty much said that my horse didn't do well in training and I am disappointed and will have to start the horse from scratch and retrain it. I also said I was feeling sort of ripped off.
I guess I should have told everyone the horse was perfect and retrained it in silence and let the trainer take the credit when the horse is retrained and running because it faux pas to share any experience with a trainer that was bad.
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I haven't read all the posts but why come on here, ask for opinions and then respond so defensively.
Yes, you should have checked on the horse in 6 months and should have been more adamant. You are paying them for training and should be getting updates.
Yes, it was uncalled for to post on social media. I don't know why everyone feels the need to post their issues on facebook. As many have already said, a lot of people will know who you are referring to.
Unless I misunderstood, doesn't sound like the horse came back worse? It only had 5-10 rides so I doubt it was moving off legs, wtl with perfection, etc. So in theory the horse just didn't learn anything which still sucks but you should have been more involved. | |
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  Independent Cuss
Posts: 3978
Location: Dearing, GA | So what happened with this?
Did the OP pursue any further action?
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Member
Posts: 28
| I've only made two posts on my facebook regarding this situation, none mentioned the trainer, just my disappointment in my horse being dead sided, hard mouthed and barcey after six months with a professional and feeling I had been ripped off because the trainer wasn't honest about the problems they were having with my horse and was just collecting my money. Never posted on the trainers facebook, never got nasty with the trainer.
We couldn't negotiate a settlement so the Trainer blocked me on facebook. I took action to get some of my money back. Now the trainer is busy bashing me and embellishing their story about how awful I was and how the trainer paid for my grain, farrier, chiro, vet & paypal fees etc. When I actually paid for all of those and have proof of it. Now the trainer is going to ruin me and I'll never be able to sell another horse, find a trainer and they will make sure I was essentially black balled from the barrel racing world, calling me every name in the book.
But honestly this trainer can bash away, I expected it honestly because I've seen the trainer bash several others in the industry. I knew when I originally told the trainer I wasn't happy with the my horse and wanted an explanation, that this would happen.
Live and learn. Me and my horse are moving on to bigger and better things.
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 602
| The comments on here are entertaining. Sounds like you learned your lesson (a very hard one). If you do decide to send another one to a trainer. Make sure the horse is within 200 miles from ya. Then you can drop by and evaluate the situation a little better. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 912
Location: Alabama | Maybe I missed it somewhere, are there videos of this horse? In six months time surely you have a few videos and pictures of the horse's progress? I have sent them out for training before and had them work great and then sull all of a sudden. Unfortunately it happens. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 878
Location: "...way down south in the Everglades..." | Wow I missed this one the first time around.
First off, slander does not apply in this case. It'd be libel (written)...and it'd be a hard case to prove since in order for it to be libel it would have to be proven that the comments and/or reviews of this trainer were false. If anything, I think the OP has a better chance of proving libel if it's true that the trainer is going around posting that the OP didn't pay for stuff and OP has proof they did.
OP you definitely learned a hard lesson on this one. Your original post, no it's not unreasonable to expect a horse to walk, trot, lope, stop, backup, yield fore and hind after 5 months. And I really don't think it's wrong to voice your opinion that you were disappointed. Does anyone read some of these yelp reviews for services and restaurants?? People are constantly voicing disappointment. It's up to the person reading those comments to determine whether or not the poster has a legit complaint or is just a constant complainer.
Anyhow, my main take is both parties needed to be proactive and in a sense work as a team to make sure expectations and results are communicated well. That obviously did not happen. If the OP's comment that he/she asked for videos and trainer couldn't provide...huge red flag. I'd pulled at that point. So from there on, I blame the owner for not stopping this sooner. But I actually think this trainer sounds like a joke based on the info from the post. Although you can't force people, I would never purposefully send a horse back without showing the owner what I've been doing, where the horse is in training, and what steps I would take next. Also, I've asked all clients to ride the horse at the end so I get a feel for their skill sets and handling and can actively give them advice and suggestions while they are on the horse in front of me. That way if they do come back with questions or problems, I'm better equipped to know how to answer and help them.
One thing's for sure, this was an entertaining thread to read through!
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 Too Skinny
Posts: 8009
Location: LA Lower Alabama | So Lost - 2017-08-08 10:15 AM I've only made two posts on my facebook regarding this situation, none mentioned the trainer, just my disappointment in my horse being dead sided, hard mouthed and barcey after six months with a professional and feeling I had been ripped off because the trainer wasn't honest about the problems they were having with my horse and was just collecting my money. Never posted on the trainers facebook, never got nasty with the trainer.
We couldn't negotiate a settlement so the Trainer blocked me on facebook. I took action to get some of my money back. Now the trainer is busy bashing me and embellishing their story about how awful I was and how the trainer paid for my grain, farrier, chiro, vet & paypal fees etc. When I actually paid for all of those and have proof of it. Now the trainer is going to ruin me and I'll never be able to sell another horse, find a trainer and they will make sure I was essentially black balled from the barrel racing world, calling me every name in the book.
But honestly this trainer can bash away, I expected it honestly because I've seen the trainer bash several others in the industry. I knew when I originally told the trainer I wasn't happy with the my horse and wanted an explanation, that this would happen.
Live and learn. Me and my horse are moving on to bigger and better things.
There are always two sides to the story and while I have read yours I have also read hers. This will only get more interesting from here. good luck to ALL involved but mainly the horse | |
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